IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!

FIRST General Forum
1

I received an e-mail blast from VexRobotics directing me to their web site where they discussed the following. Let the debate begin!

“There is a coalition of partners launching a local, regional, national, global and virtual network of Vex Robotics Competitions for schools and teams to participate in annually! There will be many more Vex Robotics tournaments and events available as options next year than this past year. This program is being launched by a number of incredible partners dedicated to advancing Science, Technology, Engineering and Math to students and schools around the world. This coalition includes two different non-profit foundations along with many corporate partners and sponsors all focused on providing the best possible high quality, high tech, challenging, accessible, educational, fun and affordable program. Registration will open after the Vex World Championship on May 3rd. Tune in on May 3rd (the event will be webcast) to learn all the exciting details. The network of tournaments around the world will be very large, will continue to grow, will be very cost effective and easier for event organizers to run – providing many more options and opportunities for teams to play and compete with their Vex Robots throughout the United States and around the World. All Vex Robotics Events and Tournaments will be listed at www.robotevents.com”

2

Sounds good, I’m excited that they will continue their program, just because they are no longer involved with FTC its good to see many growing programs. Coming from a FIRST perspective the idea is to encourage and inspire the growth of these types of competitions regardless of their relation to FIRST. Anything that promotes science and technology is okay in my book. Granted it may not be on the FIRST platform but vex has proven to be a great platform and I hope IFI succeeds in growing the program bigger each year. I’m also extremely interested to see how many teams will remain as FTC or turn over to VEX or possibly a bunch of both, because both seem to be pretty affordable.

As for the actual platforms well, I guess the verdict will still be out, VEX is tried and true, tested and successful. I’m excited to see the product that FIRST that FTC ends up using, the final product not just what they have put on their blogs.

3

I’ve been following the FTC blog, and lots of schools seem really committed to Vex, so this only sounds like a good thing to me. I’m glad IFI seems determined to support Vex customers and make sure there are great events if FTC won’t be available to them. I agree with the last post that more choices are good and hopefully they both do well. The team I’m helping start and mentor next year is going to do Vex, just because it sounds like it will be cheaper, we know it’s really good, and it seems better and safer for a school classroom. That’ll change if there aren’t Vex events in our area, but it sounds like there probably will be.

4

Woo hoo! More robot choices! Think of how limited we would be if the Honda Civic was the only car available? It’s a great car, sure, but there’s plenty of room in the market for Toyota Corollas and Mazda 3’s, too. I say, good on FIRST, and good on IFI. I suspect that Exothermic Robotics will do both types of events next year, if there is a local IFI tournament. More events, more platforms, more fun!

5

I am not a big fan of this idea only because they are doing it for profit. They realized that without the FTC cooperation (and all the money involved) the vex platform will become obsolete. I wouldn’t say that the promotion of science and technology is the first thing on their priority list.

6

I don’t think you could be farther from the truth.

I really like the idea of a competing competition; Competition will keep both organizations striving to improve and away from shenanigans hopefully.

7

While past results are not necessarily an indication of future events, last year’s Bridge Battle game was free to register a team.

To register a FTC team was $300.

I don’t care if IFI is making a profit of their competition; if they deliver the most inspiration per dollar* then they have my support.

  • We can say that almost all Vex or FTC competitions deliver about the same amount of inspiration. Since FTC costs $300 to register, plus the Vex kits and event registration, while Bridge Battle (or Savage Soccer) teams only have to get Vex kits and event registration (Savage Soccer is free!), then even if they end up both buying the same amount of parts, FTC will cost $300 more per season. Therefore, it has less inspiration per dollar.
8 
 You might want to be careful what kind of double standards you create for yourself.  Blind loyalty of anything only prevents you from being objective.  Will you apply this same logic to Lego, Pitsco, GE, Apple, Google, National Instruments and others.  I guarantee you Lego makes much more profit off FIRST and teams then any of us can probably guess.  If anyone thinks promoting science and technology is the reason Lego does FIRST or wants to replace Vex, that would be a very naive belief.  What about DEKA? I saw Dean on TV yesterday, will your next post criticize Dean for all his medical inventions and the water cleaner because he has become very rich selling these products he creates?  I wouldn\'t.  Good for him and good for us.
 I applaud IFI and whoever the partners are supporting this new competition for doing this.  My team had to leave FIRST because it was too expensive and too hard, this might be an opportunity for us to get robotics back in our old school.  More choices, especially if they are cheaper for schools and still high quality, are good.  If there are thousands of schools already using Vex, then this new program is doing a great service to those schools by helping provide places for them to play if FIRST isn\'t going to anymore.
9

All businesses are in business to make a profit. Any business that is in business for any other reason quickly goes out of business.

That said, many times their business parallels good objectives, as IFIs Vex Science and Technology competitions seems to do here.

Just because a business makes a profit off of FIRST teams does not make them evil, nor does giving to FIRST teams make them saints. Understand the motivations of these corporations (follow the money) and you will tend to see that all of them (from AndyMark to IFI to Microsoft) that align their buisinesses with FIRST do so because it is both profitable and in their companies best (PR) interest to do so.

10

Change - people hate change. There is going to be allot of change this year. I would encourage teams that are going to do a vex/FTC type competition next year to sit back and soak in the info coming from IFI and First. There is not enough info yet that has been officially released to make a decision which platform is the best fit for you team situation. The reality is it well maybe into July before a rational decision can be made. Emotional feel good decisions tend to be mistakes. To get started, one can start to look at the hardware and software platform. You can go to the Lego mine storm web site and look at the hardware specs for the NTX. The Vex hardware is well documented. You can look at the primers on the NI lab view style programing.
RobotC is available for both platforms. One could start to evaluate the differences. There is a fundamental difference between the 2 hardware platforms. NTX is more based upon the control of intelligent sensors and actuators. Vex is based upon the classical micro controller low level control of raw sensors and non intelligent actuators. The Vex platform may be a little easier to master at first but the NTX may be much more extensible. What kind of students do you have. Have they mastered vex and what something more to chew on? Then NXT may be better. Has it been a challenge just getting them up to speed on the Vex then stay with vex. Each teams resources and abilily needs to be evaluated and the choice made.

11

Initial thoughts:

1. Cost:

FIRST: 1000 for initial kit. 275 registeration + 0-300$ regional registeration cost.
IFI: 299 for initial kit - most teams already have many parts so cost is 0. Registeration fees were 0$ for BB, and are likely to remain lowish. Cost of event varies.

FIRST has not shown what exactly comes in the initial kit and what extras we need to buy, so its hard to judge. I believe IFI has a low registeration cost because they are a profitable company and can afford to support the GDC for IFI. The quality for bridge battle equals to that of FTC, and if they can consistantly pull out a decent game every year, they definitely beat out FTC on this aspect.

quote from IFI:

This program will be very low cost, include great prizes and consist of many great categories to enter. The program will be open to all ages, all grade levels, everywhere around the globe

2. Ease of use:

FIRST: Completely unknown. Has chiefdelphi to answer any questions. I don’t believe usfirst forums answers technical questions.
IFI: Has already been tested to work for 2 years with great sucess. Has customer support and a great forum to answer technical questions from hired experts.

Since FIRST parts come from several distributors, it may be difficult to find help for an individual distributor. Also, has anyone considered the fact that FIRST releases parts of the game every week because FIRST does not have final suppiers for certain parts?

3. Reliability:

FIRST: has the bad image of switching fields from 2005-2006, and changing platforms this year. Who knows if they decide to switch platforms again, or possibly ask teams to buy a new kit every year like in FRC.
IFI: will most likely upgrade their product, but will not likely remake their entire platform.

quote from IFI

listen to and follow the needs of the customer, don’t try to force them to adapt to us

A little sting at FIRST, which is very accurate in describing how a lot of people in FTC feel right now.

4. Volunteer, Community, Reputation and Sponsor Support

FIRST: being a non-profit organization means FIRST gets a lot of great and dedicated volunteers, as well as many sponsors.
IFI: As a new program I imagine IFI has less sponsorship as well as less dedicated volunteer support.

Quote from IFI:

This program is being launched by a number of incredible partners dedicated to advancing Science, Technology, Engineering and Math to students and schools around the world. This coalition includes two different non-profit foundations along with many corporate partners and sponsors all focused on providing the best possible high quality, high tech, challenging, accessible, educational, fun and affordable program.

hmm looks like IFI is catching up to FIRST on this aspect.

5. Values and Principals:

FIRST: I really admire the way FIRST set up gracious professionalism and other principals and concepts. I think it is the most important part of FIRST because it gives you something you can take for the rest of your life, even if you are not doing engineering.
IFI: I admit I have not been to any events, and have no idea the ideals they bring to the table.

I would also like to point out that IFI robotics will be taking this competition to a global level.

This is a global event with nearly 50% of the participating teams coming from outside the United States.

Which means teams will get to meet other teams from different parts of the world and connect.

We look forward to hearing community feedback once all the details are announced.

In closing, it is feedback from our customers that ensures we continually improve, advance and evolve Vex.

IFI listens directly to the users? That gives it a big checkmark in my book.

As of now I have no idea which program I will be involved in. Both organizations have a lot of question marks. However I would like to point out that IFI certainly presented their program in a much better fashion then FIRST. Many teams will take this in consideration.

I would like to point out this is only my thoughts and not a pitch on why you should select IFI. Whatever competition I pick for next year, I will still probably volunteer and watch FRC events.

12

I will say this, First has a certain “experience” that can and will never be replicated. This is esspecially true when you go to the championship event. You can see First as a whole there and the experience can be awe-inspiring.

Now that I got that out of the way, Vex is one of the coolest things I have ever used or owned. I’ve found that you can give the average High School student a Vex Kit and a few hours and they will have assembled something cool with little to no guidance. Now once you add guidance to that mix the possibilities shoot through the roof.

I’ve also notice that IFI, because it manufactures every part of vex system except the software, can give amazing customer service. I’ve had problems that I could not solve and got replies within hours. It’s also nice to know the people who are behind the product, I bet at least 2 out of 3 people can name someone who works for IFI and is involved with Vex/First. I’ve found that there all good people and are willing to help with almost anything.

For those above reasons I would stay with IFI’s vex program. Especially if it’s free or nearly free. That gives people like me and a few others who own their own kits the opportunity to go out an build robots that can compete on a very low budget. I foresee alot of teams sticking with Vex just because of free/low cost competitions. Just think a team who needed a budget of $1000 to compete in First only needs half of that to compete in a free program, so what do you do with the other half of the money? Buy more parts, sponsor another team, travel to another competition. It seems like with vex the possibilities are endless.

And my final note on Vex is that it is our product. When we ask IFI gives. We wanted larger onmi wheels, and IFI made them, we wanted new gears and they too were made, and the list goes on and on. I think that Vex will grow faster without FIRST in the coming years but, only time will tell.

13

Remember IFI is running the World Bridge Battle Championship in May out in California. I expect they will try and make it the biggest, best, and funnest event for the teams that go. They want the kids to have a good time.

14

I believe if you check the facts, IFI has used their contacts to open robotics competitions world wide. They took a good idea and saved it from extinction when Radio Shack couldn’t market it. Then expanded it, added their own great customer service and got people to sign on to it as a great platform. (Personally, I believe they did that to help kick start FIRST in foreign countries.) Yes, I hope they are making money at it. They deserve to make some profit. But for my money they are not exploiting anyone by doing so.
After watching IFI and their reps for their many years in FIRST, and knowing their commitment to this program, I look forward to their continued success. Their level of committment and customer service is unknown in modern day business. How many corporations do you know that would pick up design of a critical part like the radio modem, and actually be able to deliver the part (including the critical FCC testing and type approval) in quantity in just a few months all to satisfy just one customer?

15

if they have a competiton next year in ontario ill do both because ive got 1K worth of vex sitting in my room and registration is free

but im sticking with FTC and the new platform for now

16

I am reserving judgement on the IFI-vs-FTC decision until I see both in action, in person. However, I will say this;

I like the idea of choice and variety between competitions. My hope for the IFI competition is that it will stick to the goals and ideals of FIRST (the great things, like gracious professionalism and the concept of inspiring youth to follow career paths in science and technology) even without the FIRST platform.

I’m not sure 1923 as a robotics team will be able to do even one of these two great options because of funding, but I would love to be a part of both competitions in whatever way I can.

I sincerely hope that anyone who becomes involved in the IFI/VEX competitions does not leave FIRST; it would truly be a shame to see people go. But IFI has presented themselves well and gained a good following through FIRST and I’m looking forward to seeing their successes in the future.

My $0.02.

17

Are you serious?

I know from talking to people from IFI that their competitions will be CHEAPER. It will be cheaper to run the competition, and it will be cheaper to register for the competition. As accessible as FTC already was for teams, it should be even easier for schools to start teams and competitions, with VEX/IFI.

18

Just curious to why you, or anyone, would make a decision either way before we even know the full details of the new platform and Vex’s competing competitions.

The way I see it is we have a known with Vex’s hardware, and (for most of us) and unknown with their competition.
We have an unknown with FTC’s hardware, but a known with their competition.
I won’t weight the two against eachother, or directly compare at the moment, but I think if either side tries to pretend they are what they aren’t it won’t end pretty. Let’s not start a Holy War and contend against eachother. Say what your platform can and can’t do, don’t try and say “we’re better because of X,Y,Z.” It won’t end well.

19

Well, I’m glad to see a new opportunity. I know in MI, even if we want to, we can’t do Tech, so the opportunity to do IFI may be a way to get more area schools involved in science/tech type things!

20

Right now I am reserving my judgment until I see what the new cost and final format of FTC is for next year. I admit, I really enjoy having and designing with my Vex system right now and don’t have a budget to invest in a second set up. I think many of us are sitting in the period of let’s wait until the grand unveiling and see, is the cost worth it compared to staying with IFI and Vex. I just hope we find out the cost soon so I can make a decision and work on a budget for next year.