Afterall, we’re all in space together. This is our frontier.
A frontier that belongs to no individual, no individual nation.
This is where we must band together and represent ourselves as
a world.
-Brian H.
Team 623
Vienna, VA
I was just wondering what you guys think of this since there have been some people bringing up the fact that there was an Israeli and Indian onboard the Columbia.
i consider them not as americans, indians, or israelis, but more, as human beings.
they were true FIRSTers, regardless of if they attended a competition (Brown) or if they had just come from the israeli air force (Ramon). their job was to further the knowledge of humanity, and while at it, increase the awareness of the world about science and technology. i know that team 810, as a NASA sponsered team and as a FIRST team, will be placing a STS-107 patch on our robot, but no flags of any nation. why? because these people weren’t just from a certain nation, they were from the third planet from the sun, which we call earth.
some good, and surprising, news.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16155-2003Feb2.html
hopefully NASA will be able to use this money (if it is approved) to work on a replacement for the STS, because i believe it looks like we are in dire need of one at the moment.
*Originally posted by Ian W. *
**i consider them not as americans, indians, or israelis, but more, as human beings.they were true FIRSTers, regardless of if they attended a competition (Brown) or if they had just come from the israeli air force (Ramon). their job was to further the knowledge of humanity, and while at it, increase the awareness of the world about science and technology. i know that team 810, as a NASA sponsered team and as a FIRST team, will be placing a STS-107 patch on our robot, but no flags of any nation. why? because these people weren’t just from a certain nation, they were from the third planet from the sun, which we call earth.
some good, and surprising, news.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16155-2003Feb2.html
hopefully NASA will be able to use this money (if it is approved) to work on a replacement for the STS, because i believe it looks like we are in dire need of one at the moment. **
I couldn’t have said it any better.
Why does it need to have an Israeli flag on it?
and Earth is capitalized…
*Originally posted by Johca_Gaorl *
**Why does it need to have an Israeli flag on it?and Earth is capitalized… **
#1- that is the real mission logo that NASA made. it just doesnt have the Earth behind it.
#2- i think that Illan deserves a little respect. he should be able to show his national pride.
*Originally posted by Johca_Gaorl *
**Why does it need to have an Israeli flag on it?and Earth is capitalized… **
i think the main reason is because there has never been an Israeli astronaut, so as a tribute to that, they put an Israeli flag on. i believe it is completely appropriate, under the circumstances. as for any extra flags, not needed, based on what i have already said.
If there is an Israeli flag on it, there should be American flags on it too. NASA is an American organization. I do not think that the Israelis deserve any special acclaim for essentially hitching a ride with us. Unfortunately NASA has to cater to a lot of politics and we end up with something like that.
*Originally posted by Johca_Gaorl *
**If there is an Israeli flag on it, there should be American flags on it too. NASA is an American organization. I do not think that the Israelis deserve any special acclaim for essentially hitching a ride with us. Unfortunately NASA has to cater to a lot of politics and we end up with something like that. **
Those of us who were cautioning against including the flags of any nation were doing so with regard to any sort of the memorial designs that have been appearing on this site and elsewhere in the past several days. It’s egocentric and disgrace to the mission and purpose of that shuttle flight to even dare try to claim it as something purely American - with or without regard to the presence of Ilan Ramon on board.
Their work was for humanity, not for America. Their passion was for science, education and progress. They saw beyond the horizons of Earth into the future, and they gave their lives reaching for the promise and hope that it offers.
This is not a loss to a nation, except, perhaps, to those who are incapable of seeing the grander picture. America didn’t lose some its best and brightest on Saturday morning, but the world did. People who give so much for so little recognition, who move us closer toward living a better life here are on Earth, and who ignore differences of age, gender, sex, religion, and nationality while working together toward such a noble goal are all too rare a breed.
Truly, they are citizens of the world.
I’ve never been a big fan of memorials. I find them to often be callous, contrived, thoughtless, and little more than simple propaganda. It’s almost like a McCarthyism redux that sees everyone trying to make sure they’re not too strange, or too independent, or too unamerican. Well, I’m not in any position to tell people how to remember their dead, their living, or anything else in between - but I strongly believe that such memorials should be without any national insignias. The Mission Patch has an Israeli flag on it because the people at NASA (the only government agency I’ve ever seen that has real, honest human beings) decided that it was worth noting. Why they did so, whether because of their appreciation of Ramon’s accomplishments or political pressure, we can’t ever know. But, we should respect their decision and the sanctity of that Mission Patch as the true emblem of the mission, accomplishments and potential of those seven astronauts. To even remotely suggest, underhanded or openly, that a memorial ought to have an American flag somewhere in it because the Mission Patch has an Israeli flag alone, and we need to keep the count even and fair. . . it’s just disgusting.
Again, this was the planet’s loss. Don’t dare coopt that loss by trying to claim it for America or Israel or India or Russia or any other country ever involved in the Space Program, science, the pursuit of knowledge, or revolution.
Sheesh.
I was trying to point out what I ssee as an obvious discontinuity in your arguments, I just did it poorly.
You say they are citizens of the world, but yet you see no problem with puffing up one nation by having their flag next to a citizen of their countries name.
Their work was for humanity, not for America.
As an extension, or Israel, or India, or Russia, or South Africa, etc.
This is not a loss to a nation
They were great citizens of our nation, so yes it is a loss to a nation, ours and Israels alike.
http://www.nasa.gov/images/banner/home/columbia.jpg
Looks to me like NASA thinks it was a loss for America.
Oh, and NASA = National Aeronautics and Space Administration. The nation in reference being America, since you seem to have forgot, it’s not UNASA. :rolleyes:
Just a note, please excuse me if this comes out a little confusing, I know you all understand 
*Originally posted by Johca_Gaorl *
**I was trying to point out what I ssee as an obvious discontinuity in your arguments, I just did it poorly.
**
Very poorly.
Their work transcends national boundaries, foreign policy, and socio-economic divisions. Their work had the immense potential to benefit everyone on the planet.
I don’t see how there’s any discontinuity there, but that’s not really relevant.
Look at the bigger picture. NASA is an American agency, for certain. America funds NASA, and many of the astronauts were American citizens. I’m not disputing that, nor do I care, honestly. Their work wasn’t distinctly American. They weren’t trying to build a better hot dog, or make baseball more interesting to watch. Their work had international, humanist appeal and benefit. There is nothing about their work that, to my knowledge, was only applicable to the American people. They’re not trying to cure diseases that only American’s contract, or engineer food that only American’s can eat, or establish a colony that only Americans can live in.
For “America” to step in and say that these were our astronauts on our Space Shuttle Columbia, spending our tax dollars - while not incorrect - is horrendously callous and selfish and self-righteous.
We have no place to take the spirit, fervor and accomplishments of these seven people away from the rest of the planet and claim it as our own. Neither do you.
well I’m going to have to agree with jocha here and say that the Israeli flag does not belong on the patch…
This just goes to show what political correctness is going to do to the world, we feel it necessary to represent a country of someone flying on OUR aircraft and we don’t put our flag on our patch…there is something very wrong with that…i don’t believe that he should be pointed out specifically because hes Israeli…that to me…makes no sense…maybe I’m not liberal enough to understand but this is America…and NASA is an American organization…and the shuttle took off from American soil…and those men represented America no matter what country they were from…
Whoa whoa whoa- everyone hold up here… Look at the perspective of a Israeli person…
Illan’s feat was amazing to them- he became a national hero… Many little kids undoubtedly look up to him as a leader- we were showing our respect to Israel by putting their flag on there. I guarantee you that any israeli person who looks at that patch will beam in pride… perhaps because it represents the bond between their country and america… or perhaps because it was one of their brothers up there
(If I offended anyone by this post, I’m sorry- just trying to show another perspective contrary to what’s been presented here)
*Originally posted by purplehaze357 *
**well I’m going to have to agree with jocha here and say that the Israeli flag does not belong on the patch…This just goes to show what political correctness is going to do to the world, we feel it necessary to represent a country of someone flying on OUR aircraft and we don’t put our flag on our patch…there is something very wrong with that…i don’t believe that he should be pointed out specifically because hes Israeli…that to me…makes no sense…maybe I’m not liberal enough to understand but this is America…and NASA is an American organization…and the shuttle took off from American soil…and those men represented America no matter what country they were from… **
I think this goes to show exactly what arrogance and pomposity have done to this country.
Thank you for being an excellent example.
I am the least politically correct person on the planet. If I were politically correct, I’d mumble some garbage about how you’re entitled to your opinion, how we all should respect it, and how
we should just agree to disagree. That, however, leads to selfishness, because the only result is that you think you’re allowed to believe whatever you want to believe and do whatever you want to do and think, somehow, that it doesn’t affect your friends, family, children, and every other person you ever meet. The fact is, it does.
I am not politically correct. Ever. I do not promote selfishness, I do not understand how you can believe something but agree to disagree, and I, above all else, don’t understand how you can go without considering how your attitudes, opinions, and actions affect other people.
The arrogance of the American people is something that, while I’ve grown accustomed to it, never ceases to astound me. The way that they, in their supposed inifinite power and wisdom coopt the achievements of others, in some morbid way, is amazing.
Stop with the spin. This is tragedy that affects all humankind, because, above all else, it effectively halts any forward progress that may come from the space program for months or years to come. That affects everyone, whether you’d like to believe it or not, and to brand it American, slap it on a bumper sticker, and deny other nations and other peoples the ability to mourn this loss just as you are is disgusting.
I’ll just point out that Col. Ramon had an Israeli flag on his suit whereas the others had American flags on their suits.
See this picture, if necessary:
http://images.deviantart.com/large/indyart/tech/Columbia_STS-107_Tribute.jpg
*Originally posted by M. Krass *
**The arrogance of the American people is something that, while I’ve grown accustomed to it, never ceases to astound me. The way that they, in their supposed inifinite power and wisdom coopt the achievements of others, in some morbid way, is amazing.Stop with the spin. This is tragedy that affects all humankind, because, above all else, it effectively halts any forward progress that may come from the space program for months or years to come. That affects everyone, whether you’d like to believe it or not, and to brand it American, slap it on a bumper sticker, and deny other nations and other peoples the ability to mourn this loss just as you are is disgusting. **
please don’t get me wrong, in no way am i trying to stifle the achievements of Illan…
And i’m not saying that people denying the mourning of the loss of human life over the placement of a flag on a patch…that is absolutely ridiculous…it was a hell of an achievement for him and his country alike…I just disagree with the placement of the flag…that is all…hopefully this will inspire other Israeli children to strive to be an astronaut…and other children from countries that would have no chance otherwise…I’m glad that as Americans we can inspire kids to become something they never dreamt possible…and it shows where FIRST is going to take a lot of kids…through inspiration, technology, achievement and constant involvement kids will go forth to lead lives they never dreamt possible…
i believe we should stop arguing over a single flag on the STS-107 patch. if you don’t like it, don’t display the patch on your robot, end of story. do not butcher the patch and remove the Israeli flag, that is out of line and wrong. do not add American flags, that’s even worse. leave it as it is, for that is how NASA made it, for a reason.
it was a distinguishing moment for Israel, to have a man in space. obviously, they wanted it to be remembered, and what better way than to put it on the patch? now, however morbid this sounds, Ramon will be remembered forever, just as well as the fact that he was the first Israeli in space.
now, since we have nothing left to fight over, how about someone takes the patch and finds a way to put it into inventor or something, or maybe just a nice big resolution one that can be printed out on a plotter. then we can all take the STS-107 patch and put it on our robots, and pay the 7 astronauts of the Columbia our respects. bickering over a flag is stupid, and probably completely against everything they stood for. next time i catch you fighting, should i just tell your mommies and maybe you’ll get time out…
*Originally posted by Brandon Martus *
I’ll just point out that Col. Ramon had an Israeli flag on his suit whereas the others had American flags on their suits.
Hmm, on his blue suit he has an Israeli flag on the right, and it looks like an American flag on the left, but on the orange space suit it looks like just an Israeli flag.
Bah, I’ll stop arguing for now, it’s too early, I just felt like pointing out the flag on the suit.
The fact of the matter is that they all went into space as a representation of their countries. But they also went up to represent our entire world. I think it’s the fact that we have the politics of the world and our own patriotics and national prides that makes us unique. But they all went up for the principle of exploration, and all died for that cause. I’m sure just as many of you here are with me in saying that I too would take the chance of going on the next shuttle flight, because that would be one of the greatest honors.
I’d like to note that there is no set template for patch design. Each one is completley diffrent.
From what I have seen of patches with international crews, either there are no flags or a flag from each country represented is worked into it. But, I havn’t seen every patch.
Again, there apears to be no set guidline. I belive a great deal of the patch artwork is at the crew’s discretion (or at least it once was).
-Andy A.
P.S. It is also becoming comman for Russian crew members to have their name written in Russian and/or English.
