He also lied to the public about WMDs in Iraq and gave the orders that resulted in rampant torture by the US military and intelligence apparatus. So maybe not the best guy to get quotes from for a student development program.
Also, for the most part if you are a “scrappy underdog” team and you’re at the point of needing to pull extra hours a few days before competition, it’s already too late. The majority of scrappy underdogs that are successful build simple robots within their limits and get lots of practice time.
Nice theory. In practice, that could go anywhere from “full acceptance, build the team environment around it, and make sure the disabled student is fine”, all the way to “ignore until it’s a problem for everyone else”.
The last line is flat-out unacceptable–it’s not actually accommodating anything.
This is a really bad take. We are not asking for all teams to accommodate all disabilities at all times, we are asking for grace, understanding, and flexibility.
I am physically disabled, and last spring I injured myself to the point of temporary disability on top of that. I wasn’t able to walk, was in a hell of a lot of pain, and fatigued really freaking easily.
I struggled to be in the shop a lot of the time and tried to throw my heart into robotics and be a full part of the team like my team wanted, but it’s unsurprisingly hard when you feel absolutely awful and you’re trying to pretend to be completely okay. My mentors were flexible with me, but I burnt out towards the very end of the season, and if I hadn’t been pulled away unexpectedly for VERY LAST MINUTE major surgery, I’m almost certain I would’ve hurt myself worse trying to keep up with the others like I so desperately wanted to do so and was trying to do.
Major Takeaway from this: It’s okay to take a break. It’s okay to not be keeping up with the others. And if people aren’t encouraging taking breaks, then that’s a huge red flag. Everyone needs a pause now and then, even able bodied people.
? That seems to be agreement. There is a massive difference between (a) not discriminating against disabled students, and (b) complying with the panoply of disability laws that pubic schools have to comply with. Those two are absolutely not the same thing.
That’s exactly the harmful attitude im talking about. It’s a freaking high school competition. Besides to follow your specific example, 90% of people with my specific post-viral illness are undiagnosed, people need the ability to listen to their bodies telling them to slow the heck down irregardless of a doctor having noticed what’s wrong.
If someone is so necessary nobody else could possibly do their job, TRAIN SOMEONE ELSE. People get covid, fall down stairs, have family emergencies, etc. all the time you cannot have everything hinge on one person ever.
What you’re arguing is the same as saying you won’t tell someone in a wheel chair that they can’t join, but you aren’t going to build them a ramp to get into your shop past the steps. That is a terrible position to take, IMO.
I don’t know how to quantify that. I’m very familiar with the history of the Rehabilitation Act and with FERPA, less so with IDEA, although I have working knowledge of their requirements.
For some reason, I think you see me as saying that it’s OK for community-based teams to discriminate against disabled students. It isn’t. My point is just that they have far fewer legal requirements, which gives them more flexibility. Heck, just complying with the documentation requirements under the laws I mentioned would make it impossible for most community-based teams to operate.
Absolutely NOT what I’m arguing. In fact, I said (way back) if you have a non-obvious disability, you should make sure the adults know so they CAN accommodate you:
Then you need to clarify what you mean, because those laws are there for a reason - they prevent unintentional, structural discrimination. If you don’t have a wheel chair ramp leading into your shop, are you even going to know that someone in a wheel chair wants to join your team? Or are they going to take a look from the parking lot and decide that isn’t a place that is supportive of their needs and move on to something else?
and its not like one can just choose whatever team they want to join either since most FRC teams are school based so honestly this person’s take is just… a yikes for me
Our shop is in my garage, which is level with the street, so I’m not particularly worried about that part. It’s certainly true that they might have difficulty getting into the house itself. But, I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that I have to build a wheelchair ramp up my front steps just in case a student in a wheelchair wants to join the team. If they do, we’ll have to figure something out.
I think the point of this thread is to point out that a set of accommodations useful in cases of CFS (like OP has) is useful to teams overall, not matter the members. I don’t think that one should need to explain that they have a chronic illness to be allowed to go home from robotics at anytime because they need to rest. While knowing that context might be helpful, it should be basic human decency to allow people to go home and rest.
Thank you for illustrating my point. I suspect they won’t want to join for that very reason.
It goes beyond wheelchair ramps, that’s just a good, visible example of how we support those with disabilities and medical conditions that need our support. How we support our team, and how we communicate that support with them gets out into the community. Students talk, and you could easily be putting off potential team members before you ever even know about them because they hear about a culture that doesn’t sound like it would support them. It’s not about ramps, it’s about creating a culture, atmosphere, and physical space that is supportive of any student that walks through the door. From what I’ve seen in this thread, I don’t think your team meets that description, unfortunately.
This this this ^
If it’s healthier for kids with chronic illnesses i guarantee it’s healthier for all students. Let’s not rush to make frcFIRST Robotics Competition teams the same culture as workplaces, it’s unhealthy for everyone’s mental and physical health. Burnout is a major public health problem.
Yeah, that’s possible. But, that’s not something where we have a reasonable alternative. As for the rest of your comment, I don’t think you can judge the entire team just because you think I’m pig-headed. We’ve had a number of students with various disabilities over the years and always try to meet their needs the best we can.
Just so you’re aware, part of why I’m in a wheelchair rn is because i overdid it too much at my old team (where i would get criticized for missing any meetings) and accelerated my degenerative condition at a crazy pace. If you’re only allowing reasonable breaks and accomodations to people with documented disabilities, you’ll likely have a couple students join your team abled and leave disabled or crazy burnt out.
To stop spiralling on this topic I want to back up @Jon_Stratis on the matter of priorities. I have said this many times here, but once again our team motto:
“Robotics Is A Fourth Place Activity”
Health First (including relationships, physical, mental)
School Second
Responsibilities Third
Activities Fourth
As we have become less concerned about running late and long hours, we have actually gotten more successful competitively. I wish I’d known this in 2012, when I injured my back trying to do “emergency” surgery on the stupid robot (which was our worst year for ranking and on-field performance anyway).
