Is alliance selection usually this bad?

FIRST General Forum
#35

I was the team representative for team 1868 for alliance selection, and we pushed very strongly to select 691 since we had worked well with them in our qualification matches. We had covered this choice with 1323 beforehand and agreed they were the best choice.

However, when I was on the field the representative from 1323 bypased our list (which had 691 on the top) and instead went with what one of their mentors was shouting at her from the first row of seats-604.

However, I think this was a minor concern compared to the number of declines in selection. The rankings at SVR were so strange and jumped around so much that there were teams who did not expect to be anywhere near picking position shoved in, and I think this was directly related to the amount of confusion.

#36

One thing that makes alliance selections particularly difficult this year is the need to assemble an alliance which can effectively play every aspect of the game. Most teams, even if they’re unprepared, understand that they’re looking for robots which “do it all”. Typically those teams will either decline a pick from the types of teams who are unprepared to make the selection, or there aren’t any left by the time they get to make their pick.

I believe this is also the reason for the large number of declines. Teams who “shouldn’t” be in the top 8, or should but are unprepared, are picking teams who they perceive as “Good” without giving full consideration to whether the teams complement each other. A team with great tube scoring but no minibot and no ubertube that ends up top 8 will probably be declined by a team who also doesn’t have a minibot, because they know it will put them at a disadvantage.

#37

They picked us

#38

Callie, talking things over with 1323, they told me that they were concerned about the reliability of their own minibot, so they wanted to choose someone with a fast, reliable minibot. 604 fit this bill, 691 did not.

#39

my sympathies.

#40

I have to admit, being on that field saying “Team 2159 graciously declines the position of alliance captain” was probably one of the most hilarious moments of my life. Firstly, I’m not even the team captain of the RoboPirates-- I’m simply the driver that was called to be the representative of our team at the last second simply because our own captain was not feeling too well about the whole moment.

As a small, 6 member team in the finals, we were simply overwhelmed by what the judges said. Did we scout before we were called up to be an alliance captain? Yes, and no. We were solely a strong, defensive team, and we looked for teams that would balance our alliance. We had not been able to finish the other features of our robot, so we were forced to lean on our strongest feature: our two speed transmission. Team 691 and team 3256 would have been my top choices IF I would have remembered their team names. However, our mentor told us to simply decline being an alliance captain so that we would not have to worry about picking teams.

Why did plan on declining the position of alliance captain? Well, a couple of years ago, our team was an alliance captain at the Davis regional. We declined the position then, BUT the judges still allowed us to be picked. In fact, we were picked by the Fembots, team 692. I was stunned when they told us that we would not be able to compete if we declined, so I was forced to turn to my handy-dandy SVR Flier that I picked up at the last second before running on the field.

You’d be surprised at all of the people that came up to me after the alliance decisions and asked what was up. After telling them this whole story, they understood completely. Do I regret picking team 100 and team 766 for our alliance? Nope. They’re all great people who I had a lot of fun with. In fact, I want to thank our good friends at team 100 for getting me out of that mess. Sure, winning is awesome, but to us, FRC is about having fun, making new friends, and spreading the values that FIRST teaches us all-- most importantly gracious professionalism. Let’s keep it that way.

#41

I was out for alliance selections for team 675 and were picked by team 2456 as the 2nd team for alliance 8.

Now they could have picked any number of amazing teams, but 2456 picked us along with 2035 because they knew we were going against 254, 1538, and 751. They also picked us because our teams are friends and to go out playing alongside your friends sounds like a blast. Now correct me, but that is what I think FIRST is about. HAVING FUN!. I feel like I speak for all three teams when I say, we played the game having fun.

#42

Heaven forbid an unprepared alliance captain picks any old team then proceeds to have fun in the elims. :rolleyes:

Winning is great. After all, it is a competition at its core. But let’s try not to put too much of an emphasis on it to the point where we’re bad-mouthing a team’s picking methods (or lack thereof). Next year, hopefully with the help of this community, they’ll know of the different ways to scout, and its importance.

Some teams may never care. I think we’d probably just pull the old “eeny meeny miney mo” trick, or the really fun “shout if you want us to pick you!” tactic if we were ever captains. Sometimes, the lack of students (or lack of those interested in scouting) can be the reason they don’t scout, either. When you’ve got 3 students working on the 'bot and two who drive, they’re probably not going to put aside much time (if any at all) to go gather data.

Just keep in mind that no two teams are the same.

EDIT: Didn’t see you post, Kevin, but it’s ironic that you mentioned having fun. Took me some time to type this out. :stuck_out_tongue:

#43

I’ve seen and heard of teams doing this and it rubs me the wrong way. I would be pretty upset to work 6 weeks and give it my all during the competition only to be passed up by a team because they wanted to pick their friends. I just don’t think it is fair to the other teams if you choose not to play competitively and to the best of your ability. If this was a Michigan event where you gets points for getting selected, I would be extremely upset. But, at the end of the day, its the teams right to play however they want.

#44

That makes sense. I remember that they had trouble deploying their minibot in one of their matches on Saturday morning. I do wish they had conveyed that to me in our meeting so that we could have incorporated it more heavily into our pick list.

Honestly I don’t think it would have made that much of a difference either way, which is why I didn’t push the issue at the time. 604 and 691 are both experienced, well-developed teams who have done well this year. I for one was extremely happy with how finals turned out, given how 254 performed in finals at San Diego and in the semis and quarters at SVR.

I mostly wanted to reassure the OP that we and 1323 were aware of 691’s capabilities and that they were not overlooked. The specifics of our selection are a much smaller issue than those faced by some of the teams who were present for selection. I felt unprepared to be there given the uncertainty of the rankings and the strength of the #1 alliance, and I had spent the last two days running a full-scale online scouting program as well as working with the scouts from 254. I can’t imagine what it might have been like to go into that selection if you hadn’t been expecting and trying to prepare for it all weekend.

#45

I will just say the friends picking thing is a very real experience. Imagine going to college, applying for a job, and finding out you didn’t get it because the person you were competing with for the job had an in at the company. Then its not 6 weeks but often 6 years.

In the real world perceived value and connections are almost as valuable as real value in a business deal. In a strange (and unfortunate corollary) the similar thing happens in FIRST, especially for second picks.

I will say after running the numbers 604 and 691, look to be equivalent. As most people know I usually go by the #s and only the #s, and this is a perfect example where emotionally I was connected to a robot and would have preferred them. In one match I saw 691 put on quite a show, and really liked it. However after your reflections I think that you made an appropriate call.

#46

604 was clearly a better choice for the #2 alliance.

No alliance was going to beat 254 by playing a strictly offensive strategy, and 691 was nowhere near as capable of playing defense as 604.

The highly defensive strategy that 1323 had their alliance play was their best shot at winning, and it worked quite well for them. If their alliance had been more reliable in automode and deploying minibots, they mgiht have won it.

#47

i think the lack of preparation for alliance selection is shocking. i was on the field picking alliances for both NJ and DC regionals for 1089, and with my scouting list, i was able to pick two alliances that upset much higher teams (NJ we were ranked 6 and made it to the finals, DC we were 7th and upset the 2 seed). at both regionals i had people looking at my list and hastily writing down whoever was at the top of my list. now these werent top-tier teams, or even teams who knew they had a good shot at being picked. when i picked my first alliance partner at both NJ And DC, both of them either had a list written, or were very knowledgeable about who they wanted to pick next and why. our team always has about 25 teams on our list, and most of the time i walk off the field with about half scratched off as being picked. at dc especially, i was very surprised with some of the selections that were made. robots that probably should not have been competing that late were being picked, and when i looked up at the board, there were plenty of teams left that i had on my list. if you have a small team, i get that you may not have the manpower to scout properly. you should at least be well-informed about which teams are ranked where, and why.

#48

It did seem that teams were particularly unprepared at SVR this year. The 5th and 7th highest teams on our pick list were able to be chosen by the #5 alliance. We were able to get our #1 most desirable third partner with the 24th pick of the draft.

#49

THIS is one more reason why teams should network. Why mentors and students should work together across teams. This year, while helping 3450, I needed help from people who had more resources from me. I went to 2337 and 68 and told them that I needed help. 68 did a bit of machining for 3450. 2337 did a lot of machining for 3450 as well as donating 2 mentors for nearly 2 weeks after Kettering helping 3450 to fix problems. They even gave 3450 a minibot.

Furthermore 703 offered to do any machining we needed that they could do, we just needed to ask.

3450 had access to many more resources because of our network of friends.

Yes, teams picking teams based solely on the fact that they are “friends” sucks. But teams picking teams based on the fact that they are nearly as good as another team and have worked well with them in the past is completely understandable to me.

#50

My team worked extremely hard this build season and we did compete to the best of our ability, but we also did it while having fun. that’s all that matters to us. In all honesty it is insulting to hear you say this. both 2035 and 675 worked incredibly hard this build season, and you should not judge how a team does because their robot has a few glitches.

We did chose to play competitivley, however there is not much one can do when going against 254 and 1538.

#51

I was more referring to the idea in general as I’ve seen/heard it happen several times. I have no idea what your robot or 2035 even looks like. I was only going by what you said in your originial post. I am in no way judging your robot, only questioning the idea of just picking your friends in alliance selections.

#52

I did want to throw a little defense for 2141 being unprepared. Their driver approached me while our team was on the field and let me know that they wanted to pick 1868. I told him that I’d go tell our scout team that and send someone to let his scouts know where we stood as soon as we could. He responded with, “Oh … I am our scout team … and driver … and lead designer.”

When we found out that 1323 was going to pick us, I let him know right away and he gave me a pretty lost look. I felt really bad for the kid. With the size of his team, he just didn’t have any scouting support. I pointed him in the direction of 971 and wished him the best of luck, but we can see that it did not work out terribly well when it came to actually picking.

The alliance called our time out and gathered all the drive teams and lead scouts together right before the finals to get a little breather. The looks on their faces was pretty good when I said, “We can’t throw a single tube if we want to win.” After some discussion it -almost- worked out for us. 1868 getting the minibot up the pole first in both finals matches was a pretty rewarding moment for the girls with all the work they put on completely redesigning the deployment.

#53

At Virginia, due to captian picking in the first round of picks, team 539 became the 8th alliance captain. Being surprised by this fact, as were us due to thier robot (let’s just say it wasn’t the best at the regional), they went up to pick without any real information. They ended up picking us, 1418, we then instructed them to pick 1086 whom were ranked low, however when working, which at the time, our connections with their team informed us they were, were one of the best robots there. Afterwards, we found that they picked us largley because we were one of the only teams they knew about due to us being next to their pit and helping them with their bumpers, but when asked why they picked us they were unsure.
While picking us wasn’t a bad choice (we we were ranked 18th or 19th, had auton, minibot and could put at least one logo up, usually to go on to score 1 or two extra tubes), it shows that if you are above 16th ranked, you should be ready to pick a team.
Ultimatley, the Blue Cheese didn’t quite work and had to sub out (for 1793 who was also unprepared even though they were the next highest rank but was able to field thier robot in the end), and 539’s robot also didn’t work, leaving us to be chumped by defense, only allowing us to put up 2 tubes and deploy a minibot.
Please be prepared for picking and subbing (especially when you are next in line for back-up bots)

#54

The problem is, not every team is on ChiefDelphi, or connected to many well-organized teams (if any at all). Sometimes it happens, and unless every rookie kit comes with a sheet of paper telling you that “you have to scout and here’s how you do it”, it will always happen.

If all of you are just so hurt over how dreadfully awful those bad teams pick their crappy alliances (that was sarcasm), why don’t you make an effort to inform every team about the importance of scouting, and the ways they should/shouldn’t go about doing so? Not just teams on CD, but teams who aren’t. While you’re at it, let them know how great of a resource this forum is…