Is Engineering truly "Glamourous"???

FIRST General Forum
#1

Here’s one FIRST-related opinion:

http://machinedesign.texterity.com/machinedesign/20060309/?pg=14

So what do you think?

The author focuses on criticizing Dean’s dream of elevating engineers to status symbol and celebrity levels in the eyes of the public. Do you think Dean believes we will ever achieve this on such a grand scale? Within the confines of our program, I believe we’ve been very successful at this, but will the general public ever buy it? Will we ever see companies paying $2 million for 30 seconds of commercial time during the worldwide broadcast of the Championship Event? Is that even a dream worth talking about, and does that kind of talk provide more ammo for detractors like the article’s author?

I personally have never really cared too much about seeing the above take place. While it would be nice to be compared to LeBron James or Tom Cruise (well, not Tom Cruise), and it would REALLY be nice to be compensated in the same manner they are, I think that’s just totally pie in the sky, at least in my lifetime.

I think the core goal of FIRST, getting more kids into engineering (or simply college, as far as I’m concerned), is a much more noble and realistic pursuit, and this is what drives me to continue my participation in this program. I can and have made a difference in this area.

The author seems to imply all you kids care about today is making money. While that’s a natural goal for anyone to pursue, I’d like to think the main driving force behind more FIRST kids choosing engineering is not that they think they’ll get rich, but that they believe in Dean’s all-too-true sentiments that the world NEEDS more engineers and that there are far too many problems facing humanity for the current number of engineers to solve. And while kids don’t necessarily believe that engineering is a “glamourous” profession, we engineers and mentors have shown them that it is definitely a “cool” one.

We mentors have to be careful to show these kids that engineering is also a “hard” profession, and that nothing we design, build, and accomplish comes easy. Despite recent assertions to the contrary :), Andy Baker does not, in fact, magically conjure high-tech gearboxes out of thin air. He and Mark Koors spend lots of time applying knowledge they’ve gained over years of study and practice to churn out their great products, as do all the other engineers involved in FIRST. Kids need to understand this BEFORE they get into engineering, lest many of them be shocked to find out how much work is involved, punt, and move on to other, easier, and yes, potentially more lucrative jobs that won’t have as big an impact on society.

Once we hook 'em, we gotta keep 'em hooked.

#2

I never took Deans goal of going head to head against sports or the movie industry to make HS students think engineering is exciting and glamorous like sports or entertainment.

Ive always taken the approach of showing students that engineering and science careers are better choices, than pursuing sports or entertainment careers - better for different reasons than million dollar salaries or public recognition.

Engineers do something that is real. Hollywood can fly the Enterprise around the galaxy, engineers put humans on the moon, and probes and telescopes into places that collect real data, that advances our understanding of the universe.

There is a very amusing program on cable, how William Shatner (ie star trek) changed the world. They talk about all the stuff that was on the Star Trek series (like communicators, non-invasive medical equipment…) that has become a reality. It was scientist and engineers who made cell phones, mpeg compression, MRI scanners… a reality, not hollywood.

Ive been part of design teams that created systems that saved peoples lives. I wouldn’t trade my career for anything.

#3

I believe Mr. Teschler misses the real point about Dean Kamen and FIRST.

A society gets the things that it celebrates. If we celebrate sports (like football) and celebrities, then that is what our society will produce.

The US was built on hard work and inventiveness, that is what we used to celebrate. Look at the ‘heroes’ of the past from the US. You will find scientists (Alexander Graham bell, Albert Einstein, Tomas Edison), Philosophers (Ben Franklin, Tomas Jefferson) and entrepreneurs (Vanderbilt, Carnage). Look at today, who are our ‘heroes’? The media will point to sports athletes and celebrities. Its my belief that Dean Kamen wants to change that and to start celebrating those from science and technology again.

Is engineering glamorous? Only if we, as a society, make is glamorous.

#4

I think we all enjoy a humorous tpyo. I believe you meant “Carnegie,” not “Carnage.”

#5

Doh!!!

#6

People are making valid points and i challenge you to put them in a letter and lets set the readers of this magazine straight.

Leland Teschler, Executive Editor
Machine Design Magazine
1300 East 9th St.
Cleveland, OH 44114 USA
216-931-9221
LTeschler@penton.com

#7

I try to do the same. I’ve told the students on my team that there are plenty of jobs out there that would pay me better than the one I have now. The reason I’m an engineer isn’t for the money (which is quite good), but for the job satisfaction.

I get to regularly see items all the way from when they existed on my pad of graph paper all the way to people using them in the field. That has an excitement all its own, one that I try to share with the students. And, if you can significantly improve the quality of life for some other people along the way, all the better.

#8

shakes head in disbeleif that a person from an engineering magazine said this…

Who needs glamour? I for one would rather be in the background knowing that my job is important than be a figurehead for some project and not know much about it.

Money = Young kids interests
Sadly this is true because at the time kids feel that money can do anything and it is the most important thing of all. But when we grow up and begin our carriers we finally see what we will be doing for the rest of our lives. Some may like it others may not. I would rather know what my future is going to be like rather than dive in head first. At a young age we don’t necessarily feel that job satisfaction is important but now that I’m older I can see how much it means to me.

You can’t get glamour from being an engineer.
Wrong. When was the last time the president commended an actor or sportsman for their actions? One of our mentors was congratulated two years ago for being a part of FIRST and for all of the things he has done engineering wise. (article) A bit of a test: How many actors can you name off the top of your head in One minute. Now do the same thing with engineers/inventors. Yes we may be in a position because of our personal backgrounds that we may be able to name more engineers, but the fact that there are people we can name means that there is glorification in being an engineer.

Engineers moving on.
The person in the article states that many people move on to jobs outside of engineering altogether. But what he fails to mention is how these job are related to engineering. Engineering lawyers, accountants, sales and managers are all needed with backgrounds in engineering so they can know what is going on. Yes it may be a title outside of engineering but the knowledge is still there.

The article (IMHO) is full of holes that are covered over with the touch of media. Media is what drives this society and helps push people in certain directions. We cannot help that some people find it more interesting to watch MTV over Tech TV. But we can push for more coverage on things relating to engineering in the media, news, and education. It is my opinion that engineering is not cut out for everyone and that not many people have the talent for it. But that does not mean that it isn’t a necessary staple in our society and that it shouldn’t be pushed for. A person might not know that they have a talent for something until they try it and you may never know if you like something until you try it. So getting people interested is key to finding good engineers.

#9

well he says numbers but doesn’t tell us where they come from . . .

his argument about how people making lots of money making news doest hold water when you add in the fact that every day company’s pay out millions to buy patents from small start up company’s, yet that still doesnt make the news(Ill site most of slash-dot for that source).

OH and BTW the reason why engineers get their MBA it to be in charge of their own projects . .this is only my opinion but hey so is most of his article.

#10

Yes, First focuses on technology, But that is not what I see as the greatest benefit of First. As my son said after 4 years in robots " it’s the team thing"

#11

I completely agree with this. This (for me at least) is one of the most overlooked things. But yet it is a good learning experience for this alone.

#12

In response to the title of this thread, Is Engineering truly Glamorous"???, and referring back to some of the prior thoughts in this thread…

Any time we can help kids to admire the work and the person who has made a true positive difference in our world, I believe that FIRST has achieved Dean’s objective of making heroes of todays engineers and technicians. This has happened with more young people than I can count! And those are only the ones of whom I am aware.

Whenever you have a young person who, in one way or another, looks at a mentor, and says, in one way or another, “I want to be like…when I grow up,” we have ‘glamorized’ that person and his/her career. And glamour isn’t necessarily a bad thing! It can be truly inspirational!

When I stood listening to a young man who talked agonizingly about not being able to put in enough time on his water purification project and his concern about how many people were losing their lives on a daily, even hourly basis because of the lack of drinkable water, I heard the words of a young man who was truly inspired and dedicated.

There are, I am certain, many more young men and women who have been similarly inspired by the ‘glamour’ of engineering, of making a difference in their world.

(Now, to read the article, put my thoughts in better order, and fire off an e-mail to ‘that man’!

#13

One thing i’ve noticed in FIRST is that many people believe that Dean Kamen invented first to inspire kids to be engineers, i believe this is only a first step to a much larger project. To set somewhat of a stage, my favorite quote from my favorite intellectual.
"Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it’s from Neptune. " – Noam Chomsky

I believe that many people, such as Mr. Teschler, is of the first type, and Dean Kamen is of the second. FIRST isn’t around to turn engineers into celebrities. It’s to transform a society that focuses on meaningless garbage like the Real World and America’s Next Top Model, into one that will continue to grow and thrive as all cultures have since the beginning of time, through innovation! Without such a transformation our culture, our country, our world, will continue to degenerate into meaningless garbage.

The point isn’t to put engineers on TV but to make people realize that while LeBron James and Tom Cruise may be wealthy, they aren’t of any importance to anything substantial.

Another quote by Noam Chomsky
“In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, discovery and freedom and innovation are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival.”

#14

I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again here.

In my opinion, if you want engineers to be thought of as glamorous, then you need to put them in glamorous positions. In other words, we need to be on TV.

What about doing something crazy with FIRST: forming the NRL (the National Robotics League) - the first ever professional robot competition. You could have 30 teams from different cities around the US. Take the best engineers from FIRST teams and assign them to the pro team in their area, set up sponsorship deals, and get it on TV. Have super high-quality robots competing in a difficult game in a series of competitions ending with a big championship in the end. Think of it like NASCAR, but with robots and regional interests.

If a professional robotics competition were to take-off, the payoff would be huge. Engineers would really be heros to everyday Joe Schmos and their kids. Kids would really consider getting into top engineering schools with the hope of becoming a professional robot competition engineer. If they don’t make it to one of the pro teams, then at least they have an engineering degree and a great career. If a minor league player becomes washed up at age 25 before making it to the Bigs, what does he have? A big fat nothing. But if the aspiring pro robot competition engineer doesn’t make it to the Show, (s)he can still make it big in the right company.

Anyway, it’s just a crazy thought.

#15

Think Battlebots and Junkyard wars. Yes these shows where around, but they fizzled after a while as with just about every TV show. There needs to be something more permanent and not something solely created for TV. The reason people watched battebots was for the destruction, and the reason people watched junkyard wars was because of the ingenuity of how junk was turned into machines. While cool looking bots may be nice, they may not draw a crowd or envelope a fan base.

There needs to be something that is more permanent and FIRST is doing a great job. I see no reason why FIRST can’t be watched on TV. It all comes down to editing anyways so only the best footage would get shown. I remember seeing a documentary on a first team on PBS once (the cheesy poofs I do believe). But it came down to editing in the drama and action and removing most of the day to day stuff.

#16

We already have super high tech robots engaged in an international competition

the winners are presently roaming around on Mars, and in orbit taking digital images of distant galaxies, and flying commercial and fighter jets all over the world.

The problem is, the people who made these robots are invisible in our culture.

#17

The problem with engineering is that most people cannot feel that they are vicariously participating in it. NASCAR fans, I’ll bet, like to imagine sometimes that on their way to work, they’re driving at Daytona. Others love the feeling when a shot is is sunk from half court. People feel engaged and exhilarated when James Bond narrowly escapes death at the hands of Baron Semedi.

Engineering simply does not have that pull. It’s challenging, interesting, awe-inspiring, but it lacks one important factor- the average Joe pushing pencils doesn’t feel that they could ever do something like that. They are excited by whats being done, but they lack that personal, important connection where they feel like the person under the spotlight. It’s very hard to convey the exhilaration felt when a machine or piece of software performs as it should, perhaps millions of miles away from home, after months or years of work. Sure, people on the moon are cool, and you can imagine bouncing up and down across the vast lunar surface, but you can’t feel the tension lifting after you realize that you haven’t just killed you colleagues on a barren world thousands of miles away.

Engineering will never pull the publics undivided attention because it’s unintimate. It may awe them for awhile, but all toys soon lose their appeal.

#18

That’s why folks have to invent new toys. :wink:

Here’s my reply, sent about 12.93 seconds ago:

Mr. Teschler,

I suppose I should preface my message by noting that I do mentor a FIRST Robotics team here in Columbia, South Carolina. Perhaps I have had a swig of the proverbial Kool-Aid. (Then again, I’m working towards a business degree, so perhaps I only sipped it.)

The average person in the United States probably knows who won the Daytona 500. A bunch know who won the Super Bowl–the championship of a game involving running around a patch of grass with a ball without getting the life knocked out of you. And I’ll bet that a lot of people in this country know the name of someone who has won American Idol. Some will probably know them all, along with the runners-up. But how many people know the name of even one person involved with the Mars Exploration Rovers?

Fantasia Barrino won the third season of American Idol, which began about two weeks after Spirit landed on Mars. The finale, and her victory, came some four months later. Have you heard anything from her lately? The rovers were built to last 90 Martian days; Spirit is on day 782, about eight and a half times what was planned, and are still sending amazing images back to our little patch of dirt.

As a business student, I had to take a course on management this semester. One of the lectures included Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, which covers the basic things a person requires to live and live happily. The hierarchy reads, from lowest to highest:

	Physiological (food and water)
	Safety/Security (a safe physical/emotional environment, permanence and stability)
	Belongingness (friendship, acceptance)
	Esteem (positive self-image)
	Self-actualization (fulfillment, competence, developing one's full potential)

My time as a student on the team, then as a mentor, made me realize that marketing was a good fit for me, probably better than engineering. (After all, if you’re going to have a competition that will rival the NBA, you’re going to need folks to bring people there, recruit students and mentors, et cetera.) If I can help the kids on my team reach that fifth level, even if it’s not in engineering, then my time working with the organization that you write as a punch line is entirely worth it.

Sincerely,

William Leverette

PS: Here’s a start on the people behind the Mars Exploration Rovers: http://marsrover.nasa.gov/people/

#19

Well, let’s see… I’ve been an engineer now for about 36 years (BSEE, Clarkson College, 1970) and I can’t say I ever felt the urge to be “glamourous.” Can’t say I ever had the urge to get rich, either.

I knew I wanted to be an engineer from age 12, when I had my first ham radio license and started building radios. I like being an engineer for the same reason I like hanging around my team and building robots - it’s challenging, stimulating, rewarding, and fun!

As far as those engineers that move on to other fields, as was already noted, society can use doctors, lawyers and businessmen that understand the technical world. In the 80’s I went back to school and earned two MBAs, in management and finance, not because I wanted to be a rich businessman, but because I thought it would make me a better engineering manager. It greatly broadened my view of the world, but I still consider myself an engineer, first and forever.

I also think the author of the article starting this thread “doesn’t get it.” Dean does. It ain’t about glamour, it’s about DOING.

#20

Well, I think this is a first: I sent a letter to a magazine and got a response! I won’t post the reply here, as that’s not good netiquette, but I will say it was positive.