Is it time first moved to lithium ion batteries?

[nuggetsyl]

Is it time first moved to lithium ion batteries?

EGO actually has a pretty solid battery maybe we could work out something with them?

• Yes
• No
• Other post below

[JaiCodes]

Your poll is messed up but yes I agree that it is time that we move to lithium ion batteries.

[davepowers]

probably not, batteries are a great way to limit the crazy speeds and forces we’re already seeing.

[Jwal]

For the purposes of increased performance I agree a move to Li based batteries could give more headroom as well as offer better cyclic performance (longer lasting year-over-year).

I disagree with your assessment of eGo batteries however. There are other battery manufacturers out there with more robust systems than the eGo design (I rank their “robustness” and design decisions comparatively low).

From a perspective of FIRST…Lead Acid batteries are extraordinarily forgiving of abuse. I see appeal in staying with this technology to give grace to those learning about electricity, engineering concepts, and getting a hands on taste for wiring up a circuit.

[ASmith1675]

Just going to go ahead a link @scubadiv3r 's post here. I understand the want/need from a power density perspective, there are significant risks in the technology that don’t play nicely with FIRST’s needs.

Let's talk about Li-ion Batteries in FRC

This has come up enough in the REV Control system forum that it warrants it’s own thread (mostly to help keep that thread on topic) I’d like to note up front that I work hands-on with Li-ion batteries daily as a Li-ion battery engineer. I’ve had to go through trainings on how to handle them when things go wrong, and let’s just say it’s been put to use. I hope that offers up more credentials than your typical random CD poster who can use google search. So Li-ion is awesome as an energy source, …

[Footie]

You’re telling me that the current power and speed of robots doesn’t scare the heck out of you, and you want more?

[nuggetsyl]

I believe That issue needs to be addressed but that is a separate issue imo

[trixydevs]

I think first needs to set a speed limit on robots. Its a hard rule to enforce, but it would keep things safe, and allow FIRST to move to new batteries. The batteries we have are 100% NOT intended for this use case, and while they work well… they are also kinda terrible. I’d love to see a more user friendly battery where every team doesn’t have to current limit their robot.

[CIM]

Lithium-ion is not the move even if we did upgrade batteries. There are much safer and more stable chemistries, like LiFePO4, which would be far more tempting for our use case. That said, I expect we will use SLA batteries for many years.

[Peter_Matteson]

As a member of the team that caused a battery fire on Einstein in 2011 I have to say that I don’t trust teams to safely protect Lithium batteries. We will be regularly starting fires due to mistreatment or damage of the batteries.

Edit: I failed to mention the battery fire was a mini-bot battery that that took way to many impacts slamming into the top of the tower.

[JPalmer]

This thread already touched on safety and performance, which are both the obvious reasons FIRST wouldn’t change - current batteries are significantly safer (baking soda and clearing a pit vs Haz-mat smoke and clearing the building) and robots are already hilariously fast for the purposes we ask of them. Going faster isn’t going to make the game field bigger or the level of precision lower.

I’d offer a third reason as well - not all Li-Ion batteries are created/sourced equally nor regulated safely. There are tons of Li-ion batteries in the world without proper manufacturing oversight or regulations. Meanwhile the current batteries are a known quantity and pose a much lower sourcing risk imo.

[Lil_Lavery]

Bring back tethers, and power all the robots from a field-side generator.

[Jon_Stratis]

@trixydevs

I think first needs to set a speed limit on robots. Its a hard rule to enforce, but it would keep things safe,

There already is a speed limit, it’s just not called a speed limit, and it’s very easy to enforce. It’s R502, only 4 propulsion motors allowed. Between that and the strict list of legal motors and controllers, there is a limit to how fast robots can go and how fast they can accelerate. We can certainly discuss (probably in a different thread) if that limit is currently set correctly! Even before this rule, there was a limit, imposed by the battery and main breaker - and I know I’ve seen teams reach that limit in the past!

[Eliot]

The battery still is the speed limit. If we could have a larger capacity battery, we would be setting our current limits higher and go faster. The motors in FRC right now can have much more power compared to the amount that the battery gives them.

[tyron256]

This would be an absolute nightmare for anyone that needs to fly to reach competitions or that needs to have their batteries shipped overseas. Many outlets dont ship lithium ions for obvious reasons and those that do tend to be very expensive and lengthy.

[Oblarg]

No.

[Vasista]

@nuggetsyl

EGO actually has a pretty solid battery

Is it all inclusive? Last time I bought a battery, the ions were sold separately

[Al_Skierkiewicz]

Point to a battery that is $58 each, 7200 watts, 600 amps max current, that won’t catch fire if it is cracked, easy to charge, easy to terminate and is 13 lbs or less.

[nuggetsyl]

Well Al when you out it like that I think I need to change my vote lol.

Hope all is well.

[swurl]

SLAs are cheap and acid burning the carpet and/or robot is significantly more desirable than your robot exploding in spectacular fashion