Is scoring algae viable to max out points?

Competition
1

Cycling the 9 algae through the processor is worth more points 6x9 than any other scoring with the caveat that the other team human can offset 4 points per scored algae in the net. Is the chance of the hp missing worth the “risk”

Is this a prisoners dilema situation where processing extra algae is not worth it? Is it situational ie. Scoring at the end so as to give the hp time to score.

Or is it a situation where the most rational thing to do for both alliances is to maximize scoring, if this is the case then your human player should be able to score in the net too since the opposing alliance would be also scoring in the processor.

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2

how we looked at it is that they always make the shot. If we think they always make the shot we only get a net 2 points so we would only want to do it until the end of the game if we do not have any time to get a ball to the net ourselves.

3

I wouldn’t wanna be a human player this year.

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4

I’ve been hesitant to assume the human player will always make the shot. The first few, sure, but the more balls are in there, the higher the odds you land your shot on top of a ball that’s already there and it bounces out.

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5

I was thinking about this in the night. Section 6.5 says that:

assessment of CORAL scored on the REEF and ALGAE scored in the PROCESSOR or NET continues for up to 3 seconds after the ARENA timer displays 0:00 following TELEOP.

I don’t see anything in the manual that says the human player cannot throw algae into the net during those three seconds.

6

That definitely seems like it will be patched, probably to make G433b specify only during the teleoperated period may human players enter ALGAE onto the field.

The purpose of the 3 second period is to allow everything to settle and to give scorers time to evaluate what is scored. I don’t think they want official scorers having to judge whether a ball was within the perimeter of the NET midbounce at T=-3 to see if a point should be added.

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7

I’ll have to double-check but there’s usually something under G211 or similar rules about exploiting the settling period being Right Out.

If you find it before I do, please do post.

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Good point, G211 says:

F. exploiting the 3-second window after a MATCH described in section 6.5 Scoring to avoid rule violations (e.g. triggering an over-extension that enables Section 7 Game Rules (G) V0 60 of 160 CAGE points or using a ROBOT’S residual energy to impact an opponent ROBOT on their BARGE),

I don’t think that doing something after-match that would be legal in-match qualifies.

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9

We have also been thinking if the 2 net points of scoring in the processor is better than just putting directly on the net. Qualification wise it will be needed to score in the processor for the coopertition bonus, but in competitive situations is where it gets interesting.

Assuming there is no stealing of algae from neither alliance, each of them will have 9 algae to their disposal and can decide what to do with them. If your alliance decides to score all 9 algae in the processor your team will win 54 points but give the other alliance the chance of scoring 36 points. Here is where it gets interesting. If the other alliance decides not place in the processor (thinking about playoffs where RP isn´t available anymore) and manages to get their 9 algae in the net, they will end up winning 72 points (36 from HP and 36 from Robots). So assuming the human player and robots can place all 18 algae on top, your team will end up losing that fight.

Still this is a topic that when further in the season we will see how important is this decision, since algae in this moment do not bring anything regarding the RP achieving besides the coopertition bonus. Our team is still intrigued which will end up being the right decision.

We are also hoping someone with more resources and a field already done in the future can help us see sooner in the season if the 18 algae in one net is possible since this is what mainly decides everything :smiley:

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10

G211 only says doing something in the 3 seconds to avoid rule violations. Currently throwing an ALGA isn’t a rule violation.

Last year (and I know last year’s rules don’t apply this year) HP’s were only allowed to throw HIGH NOTES during the last 20 seconds of the match. It was a FOUL to throw at another time.

I suspect G433 this year might be amended to make it clear that ELEMENTS can only be entered into the FIELD during the MATCH.

11

The processor fills up at around 5 algae. If you can’t shoot the algae into your own net or if the human player usually misses a lot of shots, the human player could leave the processor filled up until the last few seconds and shoot all five into the net at the end game to prevent you from putting the last 4 in the processor or reusing the first five.

12

A missed shot means it’s back on the field to score again.

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13

Some aspects of Algae that I don’t think has been mentioned much is crowding and stealing.

Yesterday we measured out field distances (from Reef to Coral station, Reef to Start line etc.) and we noted that 9 16" Algae rolling around could easily cause some issues. When you remove the algae from the Reef, it has to go somewhere. If it’s not going into the processor, its loose on the field and likely bouncing around, getting in the way and slowing you down.

So, I would argue its best to process most the algae (assuming your alliance has that capability) to clear the field and make your life easier, but also for points.

Although you only gain a net 2 points per (18 for all 9) algae exchange (assuming the opponent makes it into the net), that is 18 points your opponent cannot make up on the Reef or barge, potentially forcing them to also process some algae to keep up. If both alliances process all algae the no one is up, but if only one alliance does, said alliance gains the advantage of a clear field and extra points not available to the opponent any other way. This could be especially detrimental if only one of the alliances has any/good ability to score algae. If you can’t and they can, that’s 18 points they can score over you, even more if they steal.

To my knowledge any and all algae can be taken and scored by either alliance. Meaning a field crowded with algae could result in opponents taking your algae. This would reduce the max number of points you can earn in total (by reducing the amount of algae you can process and giving you the short end of the algae exchange more often). This could lose anywhere from 2 to all 18 net points related to algae, giving it to the opponent for up to 36 points over you.

I know this would not matter for vast majority of games but in theory if two strong alliances fill L4 and L3 and have similar/same climb capabilities, earning a net 10 points or so from algae could earn the match, and again depending by the bots abilities, leaning into algae could be good against certain alliances.

There are also some considerations with rules regarding game pieces.

G409 bans controlling more than 1 Algae, if there are 6+ in your side of the field this greatly increases the risk you incur penalties for touching too many game pieces, especially if a robot gets stuck or dies.

Another potential rules complication is ejection. Algae is quite bouncy and when knocking them off the Reef they may bounce off something and leave the field, this could also happen when throwing into the net. I don’t know if this would result in penalties since ejection has to be intentional to warrant a foul, and that would likely be left to ref discretion. However algae may damage bots on impact.

Long-ish post but I think these points are good to be thinking about when discussing the role of algae in the game

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14

Is that including the extra space set aside for the human player to place algae when they don’t want to throw it?

15

No, If you want to prevent your opponents from being able to score more in the processor, you leave them all down at the bottom.

This is from the field images FIRST provided

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16

This is the sort of analysis I’m interested in seeing, however you seem to be leaving out 1 thing, which is the ability for teams to score algae directly in their NET for 4 points flat.

To me as a baseline, each ALGAE is either 2 points or 4 points for the robot in possession of it.

Where you have to add a caveat to this, is if one of the NETs gets full enough that a human player’s toss is expected to bounce out. What was expected to be a 2 point score in the processor becomes 6 points.

On the other hand, some robot designs can get close to the NET and nearly place the algae right where they want it gently, minimizing bounce outs, leading to more optimal packing.

So to me it seems you want to process your ALGAE after they manually score their ALGAE, and you want to manually score your ALGAE after they process their ALGAE. (This assumes both sides have the ability to gently place ALGAE in their NET which is a big if).

So after scoring the first 3 or 4 on the inner part of the NET, alliances will end up in a stalemate waiting to see if the other tries to process any.

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Does that count at 4 algae scored, or has that 4th one not gotten through the sensor?

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I would guess that the fourth one has not counted yet. The alliance of the human player has 16 potential points sitting there if they can get all the algae in the net. The opposing alliance gets 6 more points if the human player tries for the 16. Best case for the human player is that they make all the shots and increase the score difference by 10 points. If the human player can generally make 50% of shots, they should try for it.

If there are 5 notes in the processor, two of them would not have scored yet. The human player could gain 20 point if they make all the shots, but the opposing alliance will gain 12 for a best case of increasing the score difference by 8 points. If the human player can generally make 60% of shots, they should try for it.

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19

When looking at a CAD with algae in the net, it appears that 9 algae can fit nicely in the net before there is not much space for more to fit. My thinking is that as more algae goes in the net it becomes more likely for the algae to bounce out because of landing on another piece of algae in the net. Once 5 algae is in the net i believe it will be difficult to shoot more in because it will start to bounce off of the other algae and go back out of the net onto the field. Even though theoretically all 9 could fit in the net plus some extra, i believe that getting all 9 in the net will be difficult and as more algae goes into the net it will become more difficult to get the last few in for those final points.

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20

Depending on your Human Player, this is a distinct possibility. Our current (a senior) human player is >6’ tall and so can hold a ball 7’ in the air. So, it’ll be a very small toss for him to get it over the 7.5’ net (and I suspect pretty easy to get it to roll down to the end).

Our in-training Human Player (a freshman) is <5’ tall – when she plays, I’m thinking it will be at the Coral Intake Station :wink:

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