Is the Competition being de-emphasized?

FIRST General Forum
1

Posted by Kit Gerhart, Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Delco Electronics Systems.

Posted on 5/8/99 8:21 PM MST

Am I the only one, or are there others who feel that FIRST
is deliberately de-emphasizing the competition? I, for one
feel that the members of the winning team(s), and probably
the runners-up, should get
the recognition of receiving their medals on the stage at
the Saturday night ceremony. I have been on our team for
four years, the first two of which we did poorly in the
competition, and the next two in which we did well. While
attending the ceremony our not-so-good years, I felt good
for the winners, and also had thoughts of how fantastic
it would be if that were our team up there. Last year we
did well, and it was fantastic crossing the stage, for
all the team members.

This year, the presentation of medals was held with
essentially no spectators, and the presentation of
the trophies at the main ceremony was done as kind of an
afterthought. We received our recognition last year, but
this years winners and runners up were, in my opinion,
short changed.

I realize that FIRST wants to promote the growth of FIRST
and wants to emphasize the Chairman’s Award as a recognition
for teams who do a lot to make that happen. The growth
of FIRST is a worthy goal, but lets face
it. Building a robot for the competition, developing game
strategies, training operators, etc. is what it is mostly
about. Preparation for the competition is what we spend
long days preparing for, and what we put in tens of hours
of unpaid overtime for between the kickoff and the competition.
Its also what most of the students get excited about. The competition
is what the three exciting days in Florida are all about.

Certainly not everyone can win, but no matter how poorly a
team did this year, they might be a winner next year, and
since the competition is the Big Event of FIRST, the members
or the winning team(s) should receive recognition commensurate
with their accomplishment.

You are new free to flame away if you disagree.

2

Posted by MaryEllen, Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 5/9/99 5:32 AM MST

In Reply to: Is the Competition being de-emphasized? posted by Kit Gerhart on 5/8/99 8:21 PM MST:

NO. We know FIRST had a lot of time constraints. If some of the presentations
seemed to be shortened, I’m sure it was only because they increased the
planned number of QMs to six (we had heard there would be 4) and increased
the number of finalists from 8 to 16 just weeks before National.
If it meant a better game, they could send medals through the mail if it helped.

3

Posted by Kit Gerhart, Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Delco Electronics Systems.

Posted on 5/9/99 9:37 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: Is the Competition being de-emphasized? posted by MaryEllen on 5/9/99 5:32 AM MST:

The tradeoff for giving the winners more recognition would not have to
be a reduction in number of qualifying matches. It would only mean
extending the ceremony by ten minutes, or reducing by a small amount
the time spent by people making speeches at the ceremony.

4

Posted by MaryEllen, Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 5/9/99 7:52 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Is the Competition being de-emphasized? posted by Kit Gerhart on 5/9/99 9:37 AM MST:

: The tradeoff for giving the winners more recognition would not have to
: be a reduction in number of qualifying matches. It would only mean
: extending the ceremony by ten minutes, or reducing by a small amount
: the time spent by people making speeches at the ceremony.

There were two major winning categories - #1 Seed and National Champs.
That’s 4 teams and a guess of 30 members per team. You want to shake
hands and pass out medals AND move 120 people across a stage in just an
extra 10 minutes? That’s one person every 5 seconds which may be do-able.
But, on top of that, how long would it take to get them all out of the bleachers
and assembled by team? It would be a 20 - 30 minute procedure.
And over at EPCOT we had who knows how many Disney employees, on the clock,
waiting for us.
Although the pros & cons of the game are debatable, in my opinion FIRST did an
incredible job handling complicated logistics and I doubt there’s much that could
change my mind.
And we cannot neglect the sponsors. In the midst of downsizing and
outsourcing, we’re asking corporations and universities to give up money
to fund teams, the competitions and provide workspace & resources.
They’ve earned their place in the limelight and everyone, especially
the students, should know who’s responsible for making it happen.

5

Posted by Tom Vanderslice, Student on team #275, ORHS/AST/Hitachi, from Academy of Science and Technology and Hitachi.

Posted on 5/9/99 9:47 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Is the Competition being de-emphasized? posted by MaryEllen on 5/9/99 7:52 PM MST:

I’m gonna have to agree with MaryEllen that passing out medals
at the awards ceremony would have been a logistical nightmare. One thing
they could have done was just have the teams walk across the stage or
something…if they were already lined up before hand that wouldn’t have
been a big deal…

BUT…(there’s always a but… :wink:

I also agree that the competition is being de-emphasized…It seems like
everyone is so concerned that us ‘lowly high school kids’ might think we
were ‘losers’ when we lose the competition…so let’s pretend like its
not a competition…we’ll have all the robots go out there…and some
teams will win and some teams will lose but then in the end we’ll pretend
its not important…and then all the kids will think their ‘winners’ and
everyone will be happy…

News Flash…most…if not all of hte kids out there know the difference
between winning and losing…most of htem are the most competitive kids
in there schools…just as competitive as the athletes…who get mad
when the lose games and are happy when they win games…and most of us
also know the difference between the winners and losers of the
competition and the ‘winners’ that everyone who shows up with a robot is…
true…everyone who shows up with a robot has done something they should
be extremely proud of…after all the time we spent working on our robot
this year…i was incredibly proud of it…even if it didnt’ place well…
and everyone who shows up is a ‘winner’…but then you have teh competition…
and by the nature of competition you have winners and losers…one team
(or this year 3 teams) win and everyone else loses…now this doesn’t
make them ‘losers’…but everyone has a sense of disappointment that they
didn’t win…for some it is more severe then others (and i admit…it is
very severe for me)…but in time we all get over it…

Hmm…this is a lot more then i meant to say…but in summary…i think
that FIRST is so concerned that people might feel like losers that they
don’t allow the real winners of the competition to feel like winners.

Tom
Team 275

6

Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 5/10/99 6:01 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: Is the Competition being de-emphasized? posted by Tom Vanderslice on 5/9/99 9:47 PM MST:

Well said, Tom.

I would like to add that the competition in itself is important. In Michigan, there is a big speech before every high school sporting event about the life lessons learned by the participants, such as being competitive, learning to work hard for goals, teamwork, leadership, etc. I think the same applies for this competition. Without the competition element, a lot of these more subtle lessons won’t be learned. Because of this, I don’t want to see the competition de-emphasized.

I’d also like to add something about the time constraint at the award cerimony. Remember that we entered the park at about 8:30 - 8:45 and there was a big ‘traffic jam’ going into the park. If you’ve tried leaving EPCOT after the fireworks, you know that there is a big ‘traffic jam’ exiting the park at about 9:10. If the FIRST awards cerimony lasted any longer, those two traffic jams would have conflicted and I’m sure FIRST would have been in big trouble with the big shots at Disney. I’m pretty sure the logistics of that cerimony were very tight and they knew they wouldn’t have time to have that many people come up on stage.

-Chris

: I’m gonna have to agree with MaryEllen that passing out medals
: at the awards ceremony would have been a logistical nightmare. One thing
: they could have done was just have the teams walk across the stage or
: something…if they were already lined up before hand that wouldn’t have
: been a big deal…

: BUT…(there’s always a but… :wink:

: I also agree that the competition is being de-emphasized…It seems like
: everyone is so concerned that us ‘lowly high school kids’ might think we
: were ‘losers’ when we lose the competition…so let’s pretend like its
: not a competition…we’ll have all the robots go out there…and some
: teams will win and some teams will lose but then in the end we’ll pretend
: its not important…and then all the kids will think their ‘winners’ and
: everyone will be happy…

: News Flash…most…if not all of hte kids out there know the difference
: between winning and losing…most of htem are the most competitive kids
: in there schools…just as competitive as the athletes…who get mad
: when the lose games and are happy when they win games…and most of us
: also know the difference between the winners and losers of the
: competition and the ‘winners’ that everyone who shows up with a robot is…
: true…everyone who shows up with a robot has done something they should
: be extremely proud of…after all the time we spent working on our robot
: this year…i was incredibly proud of it…even if it didnt’ place well…
: and everyone who shows up is a ‘winner’…but then you have teh competition…
: and by the nature of competition you have winners and losers…one team
: (or this year 3 teams) win and everyone else loses…now this doesn’t
: make them ‘losers’…but everyone has a sense of disappointment that they
: didn’t win…for some it is more severe then others (and i admit…it is
: very severe for me)…but in time we all get over it…

: Hmm…this is a lot more then i meant to say…but in summary…i think
: that FIRST is so concerned that people might feel like losers that they
: don’t allow the real winners of the competition to feel like winners.

: Tom
: Team 275

7

Posted by Nate Smith, Student on team #74, Holland FIRST Robotics, from Holland High School and Haworth, Inc…

Posted on 5/10/99 9:04 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: Is the Competition being de-emphasized? posted by Chris on 5/10/99 6:01 AM MST:

: I’d also like to add something about the time constraint at the award cerimony. Remember that we entered the park at about 8:30 - 8:45 and there was a big ‘traffic jam’ going into the park. If you’ve tried leaving EPCOT after the fireworks, you know that there is a big ‘traffic jam’ exiting the park at about 9:10. If the FIRST awards cerimony lasted any longer, those two traffic jams would have conflicted and I’m sure FIRST would have been in big trouble with the big shots at Disney. I’m pretty sure the logistics of that cerimony were very tight and they knew they wouldn’t have time to have that many people come up on stage.

: -Chris

:
: : I’m gonna have to agree with MaryEllen that passing out medals
: : at the awards ceremony would have been a logistical nightmare. One thing
: : they could have done was just have the teams walk across the stage or
: : something…if they were already lined up before hand that wouldn’t have
: : been a big deal…

When I read the first message in this whole discussion, I wanted to reply right away, but I thought I’d better wait and see what everyone else had said first…

My first flashback is to last year’s national competition, when the finalist and championship medals were handed out at the awards ceremony. At least one of the two teams recieving medals(i don’t remember which) was seated way in the back of the bleachers, and it took them a few minutes to even get up there…

And then there was chicago, this year…for all of the awards, they had the entire team come forward, making a loop around the two playing fields on the floor so everybody would be coming from the same side…for the majority of the awards, i think it took longer for the team to walk through the handshake line than it did for the award to be announced!

So, in closing, my thought is this…talking to some people after the awards ceremony, they thought that it had dragged on as it was…do you really want to extend it by having 6 teams, some with 60 or more members, all parade across the stage? I don’t see where any less recognition is given to the winning and finalist teams by having their representatives come up to the stage…

But, that’s just my rambling thoughts on the issue at 11:04 am on a Monday…

Nate

8

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/10/99 8:20 PM MST

In Reply to: Memories from events past… posted by Nate Smith on 5/10/99 9:04 AM MST:

Nate,

Have you ever walked up on stage??

That feels good. I gotta say…

It’s just not the same seeing someone go up there and get YOUR award for you. I know it sounds selfish, but it just feels so good.

Why don’t we ask the winning teams how they felt? How ‘bout it guys?

-Daniel

9

Posted by Jacob Etter, Student on team #177, Bobcats, from South Windsor High Schoool and IFC & Onsi.

Posted on 5/11/99 6:31 PM MST

In Reply to: try it. posted by Daniel on 5/10/99 8:20 PM MST:

now my team has never won the championship, or even been runner’s up, but we have won our fair share of awards. last year we were number one seed and we won the quality award, that year i watched two of my teammates accept the award. this year we won the delphi power to simplify award. i was lucky enough to be able to go up and accept the award. i can say without a doubt that is much more satisfying to go up on stage and except the award. now i’m not saying to have all members of a team go up for every award but i think it would be nice for the champs and runner’s up to go up on the stage. i know it was for me

10

Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/13/99 12:19 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: try it. posted by Jacob Etter on 5/11/99 6:31 PM MST:

Hm…We did bad in the nationals, but we were lucky enough to receive an award in the regional for the best defensive play of the day.

The whole team looped around the playing field and shook hands with the presenter.

I see that some of you guys felt that that was really nice, but I didn’t think that was that good.

The moment that I felt really good was when that ‘BENG’ and we knew that we have won the game with high score.

The result is just result.

kison

11

Posted by Kit Gerhart, Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Delco Electronics Systems.

Posted on 5/11/99 9:13 PM MST

In Reply to: try it. posted by Daniel on 5/10/99 8:20 PM MST:

I have walked up on the stage (last year as a member of the
winning team) and it feels very, very good. Those who think
it a ‘waste of time’ for the competition winners to go up front
should keep in mind that those who didn’t do
well this year could end up being the winning teams (or
alliances) next year. The year before we won, we were 1 and 2
in the competition. The year before that we were 0 and 2.
Our team has been at both ends of the competition results list,
and I still think that at least the winning team(s) should
go up there. I felt that way even before I had
the chance, and I still do, only more so, now that I have
‘been there.’

As far as the time constraints, there were some
speeches, most of which could have been a little shorter,
and the ceremony could have started a little earlier. With
the winning and finalist teams seated near the stage as
they were this year, it would not have taken very long for
the team members to get to the stage.

Kit Gerhart
Team 45
Delphi Delco/Kokomo High School

: Nate,

: Have you ever walked up on stage??

: That feels good. I gotta say…

: It’s just not the same seeing someone go up there and get YOUR award for you. I know it sounds selfish, but it just feels so good.

: Why don’t we ask the winning teams how they felt? How ‘bout it guys?

:
: -Daniel

12

Posted by Jacob Etter, Student on team #177, Bobcats, from South Windsor High Schoool and IFC & Onsi.

Posted on 5/11/99 6:21 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Is the Competition being de-emphasized? posted by MaryEllen on 5/9/99 7:52 PM MST:

all six teams, the 3 runner’s up and the 3 champs sat up front with the team reps. and number one seed doesn’t need everyone to go up to get it. and what about when they are handed out switching the oder would not have taken extra time

13

Posted by Jacob Etter, Student on team #177, Bobcats, from South Windsor High Schoool and IFC & Onsi.

Posted on 5/11/99 6:18 PM MST

In Reply to: Is the Competition being de-emphasized? posted by Kit Gerhart on 5/8/99 8:21 PM MST:

I agree with you completely, everything about the award ceromony said: the compitition doesn’t matter, the national champion and runner up award should be the last two given, i don’t care what first says is more prestigoues, i’d rather win the national compitition any day over the chairman’s award, hell i’d rather win a regional over the chairman’s award, or the quality award. without the robotics compitition there would be no chairman’s award, (sorry to single out the chairman’s award it is just easiest) First is a robotics compitition, so make it about robotics!

14

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/11/99 6:54 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Is the Competition being de-emphasized? posted by Jacob Etter on 5/11/99 6:18 PM MST:

Seriously. We know what’s important to us. Who cares what the order is?

Besides, by the award ceremony we all already know who won the robot competition. What’s the biggest award that’s still in suspense? Chairman’s. That’s why it’s at the end. I think they couldn’t have done it better.

Don’t fret it, what difference does it really make anyway?

-Daniel