Is there usually this much frustration?

Where I have not been overly active in the CD community in past games, I see more and more threads popping up with people griping about this game. I understand that this happens to an extent every year, but I’ve never felt this sense of frustration among the FIRST community. Many of the concerns and frustrations are some of the most valid in years. Whether it be drastically inconsistent rule calling or horribly insufficient suppliers, the concerns are not unfounded.

FIRST charges a premium to host a superior high school robotics competition, running regionals that cost upwards of $300,000, but seems to be slipping on some of the more important things.

Again it is just my perception, but this year seems like the community is reaching a near tipping point. The politics within FIRST are getting pretty dicy. I didn’t want to formulate a long argument, but more start a discussion with regards to what is happening within FIRST and the potential ramifications.

after flipping through the financial’s for FIRST (http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Who/Annual_Report-Financials/FIRST_FY10%20AFS_Website_Copy.pdf) i see nothing regarding salaries.

Again, I just wanted to start a discussion…

Please elaborate…

Are you saying something is wrong with the game, or how FIRST is financed

In Michigan, we produce our own events locally for as low as $10,000 each. We now run all 10 of our Michingan events for less than the cost of a single traditional FRC regional. FRC Events don’t need to be expensive, but they will be if you use the standard model.
If you have an issue with event and program costs, follow our lead. These things can be changed.
The key to sustainable growth in FRC depends on 2 things:

  1. reducing the price of entry.
  2. increasing return on investment for participation.

I think there are several different things that are riling people up a little bit.

  1. Leftover politics from FTC’s kit change. Short version, a lot of people went with what they already had when FIRST changed the FTC kit suddenly. Now FRC says that we need to support FTC and their kit (I can show you where FRC said that), which some people really aren’t happy with. So you get a lot of negativity from that that’s been simmering for a while. 3-4 years is a long time to let something simmer…

  2. Red/Yellow cards. There’s quite a few–you could get it for something as simple as your partner showing up without passing inspection, or for something as nasty as intentional tipping. Problem is, a lot of them can be judgment calls. In most cases, I don’t question the ref’s judgment. In a couple others… Well, let’s just say that I’ve seen some matches on webcast that could easily have been flag-fests, or had the potential to have impeding called, that had zero penalties called, and leave whether they actually should have been flag-fests or impeding penalties to the refs who called it and the armchair refs with infinite instant replay who will try to call it “right” (and whose opinion matters about as much as that of a random CD member when your robot is failing inspection).

  3. Amount/type of penalties. There’s a lot of 3-point penalties when someone’s just trying to do what they need to do, and are barely to the point where it’s a violation. LOTS of penalties–anyone remember <G22> from 2008? Just makes the ref’s job harder.

  4. You know it’s bad when not one, but two members of the GDC resign mid-build. Only one has chosen to share his reasoning–a personal choice between principles and being a member of the GDC–and I’m not going to ask any farther of either.

What are the ramifications? I really don’t know. Most of it will just drive Logomotion’s popularity down a bit with respect to some other games. Some of it can really hurt FIRST later, if it’s allowed to, in the form of decreased participation.

Most important:** What do we do about it?** Do we walk around pretending everything’s OK? NO. Bill and the FRC staff responded to a request for a bit more transparency with just that. Now, we need to return the favor. We need to be open and honest with them about what we’re seeing within the community. I’m certain they check CD, but it doesn’t hurt to talk to them if someone gets the chance. Something on the order of, “I’m seeing X, and it kind of disturbs me because Y. I might suggest Z as a solution if it’s feasible.” If enough people are seeing something and bringing it to their attention, they will pay attention! If it’s serious, they’ll deal with it right away if they can.

In short: I think a lot of the negativity and frustration is a function of the amount of penalties and some past politics that were not forgotten. I am reasonably certain we can get over that. But if there’s stuff that is serious, we should probably let FRC HQ know that there is something that may need dealing with on the horizon.

Well both, I didn’t want to say too much, but it seems this year has seemed less professional than previous years.

At kickoff the initial crio updates first didn’t exist and then were corrupted once I got them.

Then we had the banebots issues.

Now there’s having CAN issues.

Only a chunk of the events are participating in the Twitter feed, which I was told my FIRST staff would be formally supported, and made many decisions based on that.

Inconsistencies across the board with regionals and rules.

Again if they focused less on throwing huge 300k events and focused on the actual business side to the organization, we may see a better result. If FIRST formally handled the distribution of KOP-related items (specifically transmissions) rather than letting some young tiny company do it, we may have seen a better result. rather than outsourcing the code development to a few people at NI and WPI, actually have a full-time team responsible for producing industry-standard software, with professional releases.
I would actually prefer to see FIRST invest in the staff to formally support it, rather than rely on volunteer work.

FRC costs 24 million dollars to pull off, however my fear is that too little of that money is spent on a formal staff and training. FRC is getting huge but it still loses 10% of its every year for many reasons, money being a huge one. There are other models (note Jim’s comments) for having great regionals at a fraction of the cost and WPI is working on a model to reflect this for other areas. However none of this is done via investments by FIRST, its volunteer based. Actually FIRST to an extent has opposed this agenda to make it more affordable.

The Michigan model is awesome. It seems like the obvious choice.
I think FIRSTs ego is getting in the way of formally adopting this
(IMO they view it as a step back)

Its a shame that many of the actions to better FIRST and make FIRST more affordable, scalable, and achievable are not actually a product of the FIRST organization, but rather states and universities who realize the model has a lot of room for improvement.

Actually… It is and it isn’t.

Their event model, sure. It’s low-cost, solves the volunteer problem a bit, and seems like it’s just a little more relaxed and low-key, like an offseason.

Their district system model, just try and implement it in non-team-dense areas. MI, the Northeast, and maybe the Toronto area, I can see it working and working fairly well. But come out to, say, the Utah/Colorado/Wyoming/Montana area, and the district system won’t be sustainable for more than a year. There just isn’t enough density to do it. Even in, say, CA/AZ/NV, it’s a stretch–and then HI has to go even farther to compete on the mainland.

I don’t think it’s FIRST’s ego–they’ve stated that any area that wants to can go to that model. It’s just that nobody’s got the volunteer infrastructure and team density to do it in place yet outside of MI.

It is also incredibly taxing on the volunteers.

You’re right, sorry I should choose my words more carefully. However, by incorporating the model into high dense areas, and then holding bigger evens for the less dense areas, i think it would reach a happy medium.

Personally I’d pick 3 smaller events over one big event any day, but I know this feeling is not shared by many.

good call eric…

does anyone know the whole story behind the michigan model?

Their event model, sure. It’s low-cost, solves the volunteer problem a bit, and seems like it’s just a little more relaxed and low-key, like an offseason.

Have you ever been to one of our MI events? In many ways, they are better than a regional. The biggest noticable difference is that we play with the lights on. Ask anyone at AnnArbor this weekend if they think it was second rate…Ask anyone at Troy next weekend. These are top notch events at <1/10th the price.

Their district system model, just try and implement it in non-team-dense areas.

I don’t understand why people think that running low cost events have anything to do with where you live or how many teams are in your area. You have it exactly backwards. The BEST place for a low cost event model is in areas with low team density. Which is easier: starting a $150,000 event in the middle of nowhere, or starting a $7,000 event in the middle of nowhere?

While we may require a bit more help from volunteers, since we don’t rely on any high priced staff from the East coast, we have not trouble getting people to come out and support us. Volunteers are exactly that: voluntary.

Mike,

I’m going to sidestep the MI discussion and try to throw out a few ideas toward your initial query about frustration.

A lot of the issues we are having are due to how FIRST is growing. There are over 2000 teams this year (an increase of over 14% from last year). There are over 400 new (rookie) teams and some 48 regional competitions (not counting Michigan).

  1. With an increase in regionals, there is inevitably going to be an increase in the “non-uniformity” of those regionals. As FIRST continues to grow, it will take some dramatic changes to maintain a semblance of uniformity. I’m not sure that FIRST has a plan as to how to do that…

  2. With more teams comes more people posting. This website has “crashed” a few times this season just due to the large number of people using the site. The FIRST website has had similar bandwidth issues.

  3. Along with #2 and a “normal” distribution of online personalities, you will have more “fringe” posters. These fringe posters can be more antagonistic, less knowledgeable and/or just more verbose. Note that not all of this fringe are students…

  4. Along with #2 and #3, you have a greater number of pseudo “experts”. These are folks who post their opinions as factual without citing the rules or demonstrating good, practical, common sense. Along with this, many hide behind the cloak of the anonymity that an internet persona can provide. Once again (and quite unbelievably), not all are students…

  5. Now let’s look at the rookies, second and third year teams and members of veteran teams who are new to FIRST… Their numbers are swelling as well… Yes, they sometimes ask questions that have been asked before or seem naive but that does not negate the fact that they need assistance. Yes, there is a bounty of material and websites to help them but that shear volume of material that they have to digest is overwhelming.

  6. Lastly, the number of “veterans” seems to be slipping. Add to that the number of posts has increased to the point that we can not keep up (at least I can’t).

These are some of the reasons I see why frustration is seemingly growing and, unfortunately, will continue to grow into the future as FIRST continues to grow.

However, I’d like to end this 4AM digression on an upbeat… The squeaky wheel gets greased. The righteous indignation and angst will continue to grow as FIRST grows but so will the number of people who take away a positive experience. Maybe they don’t post as often or, when they do, their posts are overshadowed by the frustration in others but I believe their numbers are also growing.

Otherwise, what are we doing this for?

JMHO,

Mike

I guess you didn’t read what I actually wrote.

I said the “district system model”. Not the “district event”. They are two different things that I am saying here.

The district event, or what I referred to as the “district event model” in my earlier post, is the event itself. I merely stated that it seemed more low-key, like an offseason. IRI is an offseason–but it’s got some of the best competition. That’s the part that is fairly easily scalable–you just need to change the event site to an appropriate venue, figure out your favorite A/V solution if you think you need it, settle the details of having a Bag & Tag instead of shipped event, and grab a few extra volunteers for crowd control (and other jobs that would need more volunteers than a normal event), and you should be good to go. I’ve never been to an MI event, partially due to never having been to MI. I’ve seen the webcasts, though.

The district system model is where your entry fee gets you two events, and all the rest of that stuff that can be expanded into later, as I understand the plan is/was. That’s the part that is going to be really hard to scale. That’s the part that a lot of places currently won’t be able to handle. That’s the part that you need a high team density for.

That’s where the regionals should come in. As a given area gets a bunch of districts/district systems, have one or two regionals close to the border area between them. Suppose that Indiana (Boilermaker), Illinois (Midwest), and Ohio (no regional, but some teams) form a district “zone” like MI has. Place a regional somewhere around Chicago that is open to any team. That’s your mixing area and a place for teams from, say, Wisconsin or Iowa, which have somewhat lower team densities, to come and play against teams from the district zones. Then when, say, WI and MN form a district area, keep that regional open to continue to serve as a mixing point for the various districts.

Eric, Ohio has the Cleveland regional and Pittsburgh is right on the border with Ohio.

Jim, does 10k include the cost of fields? I think your number is a bit low. But I do agree that MI had shown the way for the rest of us and it’s where FIRST should head.

Every year / game / rules / logistics - brings some level of frustration. Haven’t been involved in that past few years, but I have always believed that as the # of events increase, the only way to reduce the frustration due to inconsistancy, is to design the rules to reduce the possibiity of that occuring as much as possible.

Games can be designed to be challenging, fun, complicated, audience friendly, viewable, less frustrating, and understandable (even by you grandmother that only watches it once) - and most importantly - without a ton of rules.

The #1 rule of the game design is that it must have strict and unwavering overall experience goals, that tie directly back to what I indicated above. Anything that does not allow the overall experience goal to be met - is NOT allowed. The game MUST pass the test of meeting those overall experience goals, by an independent 3rd party (preferably a small group of people that understand how the game impacts a team - and not by the same people that designd it).

The rules, which are the result of the game itself, document what is allowed and what isn’t. One of the best games we ever developed for our Chief Delphi Invitational, was the game we had all the rules on a single 8 1/2 X 11 sheet of paper. Too many rules make it more difficult to determine which rules over rule each other, and even worse - you even have to determine a way to consistantly interpret them. Then, you have to succussfully communicate that interpretation method to everyone involved in deciding how it is administered (depending on the rule, it could include the inspectors just as much as the referees).

Based on other responses, it appears as though some of the same frustrations from the past are still being felt. Some are more difficult to address than others, but after implimenting the year end meetings to gather the input from team leaders and mentors - some of the key things should have been taken care of, or at least had a plan implemented - and maybe that is happening.

Too bad about the politics issue creeping in - although some would argue it isn’t politically motivated - so call it what you will. I will say that back in a day, a smaller organization, dealing with a completely different set of growth management circumstances, chose to limit how much of that sort of thing was allowed in. It was easier in part, because it was smaller and more easily managed. Over the years, certain decisions to do things one way or another, could have been the result of relationships “within” changing. Relationships with people always muddy things up - and often, those outside of knowing what really is going on - just have to deal with the changes as best we can. Difficult relationships, and decisions impacting the stuff in the kit - sometimes can’t be avoided. Unfortunately, sometimes we get frustrated because we don’t fully understand why (thus one reason for the call for more transparency).

The best you can do as a participant, is to learn that you must be able to adapt. Look at it this way, every year in FIRST is a new year. Don’t expect that any aspect of it HAS to be the same as before - it doesn’t. The things that remain the same year after year, are strictly a bonus to those teams returning. I think some veteran teams forget that, and when something does change, it adds to the frustration because it is one more thing that they are required to do something differently from what they have done in the past. In reality it shouldn’t - no one should have preconcieved notions of what was done in the past HAS to be included in the future.

I’ve typed enough for now - so I’ll pass on the discssion related to the growth model - both have some advantages an disadvantages depending on what your frustration is.

My main point here, is that you can have a great game with fewer and less complicated rules - that could reduce some of the frustration, but just be prepared for a new and different type of frustration - because no matter what the GDC comes up with - it can be a bit frustrating at times.

WPI has a model that costs $25k to host a regional at a university. I was shocked to hear it could be pulled off for this price. Also they were able to give travel stipends to teams who applied. I believe one teams got as much as 2k for travel (its a need-based thing).

One interesting number I got talk to the folk at WPI, FIRST charges $50k just for their lighting people to light an event. Many universities already have lighting and sound groups who will do that for pennies, and sometimes will do a better job.

What’s interesting is that the cost of these events are completely unrelated to the cost of FIRST, as fields are reused I group them under a FIRST related cost, but I think with all the electronics they value the field at around 75k but even if it was the responsibility of regionals to pay this, that would come out to 10 or 15k per regional. But again, we pay a huge budget, some events cost 25k to pull off, other cost 300k. However we are all paying the same. Some regionals have found ways around FIRSTs ridiculous rules.

If you want to keep pulling off huge events, you will keep losing 10% of your teams. Maybe that’s the price FIRST is willing to pay, to keep their events at the state their at.

That being said, I think if you are going to host $300k huge events, they should work closely to up the actual production value of these events. Namely stop having awful streams and awful taping of events. If your gonna pay 300k do it right.

What will make us not be the new battle bots in the publics eye?

again it comes down to emotional connections. same reason you connect with a sports team, or even a car(nascar) you have a human element and an emotional connection. I’ve already brought one other discussion, so I won’t start talking about it here again, but I think for FIRST to be sustainable and still maintain their growth rate (there’s no reason they can’t) it comes down to money.

If school boards go through a budget and see a 5k expenditure for a robotics club with 6-12 people actively involved theres a good chance it will be cut. That being said I have also wanted FIRST to emphasize entrepreneurship and business more on an organizational level. If they were to do this, and step away from STEM, but more focus on technology based solutions, many more students would be interested in joining, and thus increase the perceived value of the organization to schools, and help to justify that 5k expense.

Sam, $10K is on the low end, but we just did the AnnArbor event this weekend for about this amount, and it was very professional. Dean said so himself during his visit on Saturday. The biggest variable on the event cost is whether or not we must rent the venue, or if we can get it donated. Our “older” events at GVSU and WSU are our most expensive because we must rent the field houses from the Universities. Most of the newer events like Troy, AnnAbor, Niles, and Traverse City have a much lower price point.

The Fields are not part of the this cost. Michigan commissions the construction of 2 complete playing fields each year. This is part of our upfront overhead operating cost. We use at each of our 10 events, as well as numerous post season activities.

Contrary to earlier comments “District System” is scalable down to very small numbers of teams. It really depends what your goals are. Some people think that to run robot tourmanments you need a big population of teams, but this is not the case. If you want your local teams to play more, the real question becomes “do we actually need different teams at different events?” Many people think the answer is yes, but we know that while this would be preferred, it is not actually an operational requirement. Teams want to play more. Who they play with is secondary to how often they get to play.

We run the OCCRA league here in Michigan with a population of 24 to 30 teams each year with 4 events and a championship. It can be done with very small numbers…think about it.

Jim,
Thanks so much for sharing this. There have been rumors this year about Texas going to the district model, which has prompted a lot of the noise you mentioned - “Not enough teams”, “expensive”, “time off school”, “team density”, blah blah blah. I like small events, I like lots and lots of matches. I think FIRST events are better than school. This is great.

This

I also heard from someone involved with the FRC in Michigan, that for the MI State Championship FIRST is tied to a union who provides all the sound and lighting. At first, I didn’t believe it, but after going to Atlanta last year and seeing that the t-shirt making company who was running the gift shop was from New Hampshire, I started to believe it.

Can anyone confirm this? And if this is true, then U.S. FIRST needs to be re-branded as “US” FIRST.

Also, I’d like to point out that smaller district events are not lame AT ALL. Instead they foster a kind of localism which allows teams to get to know each other better. The result is actually an even more intense competition where participants feel more involved.

I’d pick smaller ones too. This year, with the new Lake Superior Regional, we had 40 teams compete, compared to the 60+ at the Twin Cities ones. I gotta say, it was NICE, for all parts of the team. There was a lot less crowding going on, so it wasn’t as much of a hassle to get around the place, there were more matches going on for each team, and each team seemed to be making some better relations with other teams than I’ve seen down in Minneapolis.

Does anyone know how many Michigan teams there are? Last I’ve heard, Minnesota is approaching 130-140 and growing.

I hate hijacking this thread to talk about the Michigan system, but…

Jim post here is what I’ve been thinking as to why the District system would be great for a place like Hawaii. As long as they can generate 24 or more teams, they can play multiple events with lots of matches, and not need to worry about airfare to the mainland. The district system is practically made for an isolated area of teams.

I think the district model also makes it possible for states to support FIRST rather than towns. Given Michigan is still at the same price point, but you get a better ROI. I think if FIRST adopted the model, the registration cost could be significantly decreased beyond the present FIRST cost in Michigan. By attending events in Michigan you are actually paying for teams to attend events like the BAE regional. Adopt a smaller model everywhere, and everyone’s costs go down. Also you pay 1k for all the rookie teams, maybe rather than focusing on growth, we should focus on minimizing that 10% loss of teams every year. Once again driving operating costs down.

Returning customers are always less expensive than new ones :).

I’m not saying cut the stipend for rookie teams, but I think the focus is on bringing in rookies, not sustaining the veterans.

I love hijacked threads. We have a good conversation going here, where ever it goes… awesome :slight_smile: