Just wanted to get some feedback from the general first community.
is the way that the fabric covering the bumper illegal?
Just wanted to get some feedback from the general first community.
is the way that the fabric covering the bumper illegal?
I would probably put some more staples in there, to make sure it doesn’t pull out.
The rule you’re looking for is R408 part D, specifically:
The cloth must completely enclose all exterior surfaces of the wood and pool noodle
material when the BUMPER is installed on the ROBOT. The fabric covering the BUMPERS
must be solid in color.
When installed on the robot, exterior bumper surfaces are the top, bottom, and outside (pool noodle side). The inside, where it mounts to the robot, is not an exterior surface and does not need to be covered by fabric.
where the top bracket is there are sometimes bits of wood showing but only once and a while. Is that also still Illegal?
In the instances in which you’re describing, the cloth would not “completely enclose all exterior surfaces of the wood”. This would probably be up to the local inspector on how lenient they are.
I’d err on the safer side and look at A) more staples to ensure the cover stays on the bumper near the edge and B) some hardware store aluminum angle over the fabric at the edge per R408 part E to prevent the fabric from showing the wood. (Figure 9-7)
We had a partner get disabled on the field for a small sliver of their bumper wood showing last weekend. I’d save yourselves any future headaches and just rewrap them. Even if you pass inspection you could potential have an intake pull a few staples here, small effort now saves a big headache later.
Here’s what I would do, if you have an event this week, double the amount of staples and then cover the staples in blue and red gaff tape. If you don’t have an event this week redo the fabric with it wrapped to the back of the wood, as others have said it’s just not worth the risk.
Definitely need to finish the stapling job, but other than that it is perfectly fine, we’ve ran bumpers stapled like that for years and with the proper amount of staples have never had them come undone. As John stated there is no rule that requires covering the side of the wood that faces the robot.
If its on the top edge like OP’s pic and the rest is fine, uuuuhhhhh…
maybe I should volunteer to be a ref instead of going for RI?
Please do! California has a shortage of refs, especially those with the experience of having been on a team as a student before.
Troy as a ref? Uh-oh. But I can think of worse people to have as refs, so I suggest he try it out.
(I won’t say we aren’t short down here, but it’s more we are short of consistent, year-after-year refs at many events in SoCal. Hueneme was an exception.)
Also incidentally, @davepowers: wasn’t a “small sliver”, if you’re talking about the one I think you’re talking about. Unless you call an entire 6" section of bumper wood a small sliver…
On the opening picture, concur on more staples or an aluminum clamp, but otherwise good.
I can’t really say without seeing it, and frankly nothing I could say about it’s legality is binding for your event - the LRI at the event would have the final say. The rule is pretty clear and easy to apply strictly, but I know many LRI’s are being a little more lax this year since every team is pretty much rookies again. Without seeing it, I’d say your odds of being legal are no better than a coin flip.
In a situation like this, as a mentor, I would err on the side of a strict reading of the rule - I hate having to solve a problem at the event if a little work in the shop can prevent it. If you have the weight for it, adding aluminum angle to the top (and bottom if needed) is your best bet to meet a strict definition of legal, short of re-wrapping with new fabric. See R408 part E and figure 9-7 for details.
And it looks great
I know this isn’t an answer to your question, but I just have to mention it. We used wood screws to attach our brackets to our bumpers and when we played defense they ripped right out. It looks like you’re using wood screws there, so just make sure they are long, wide, and super strong or use screws with bolts backing them instead. Our team learned this the hard way XD
The most important factors are that the plywood is of a decent quality (not the cheapest available) and the screws are long enough.
The higher quality plywood has more layers of thinner veneer and the veneer is made from better quality wood with fewer voids and defects.
The screws should belong enough to go almost all the way through the whole thickness of the plywood, including the thickness of the brackets.
One way to significantly increase the pullout strength of the screws is to saturate the plywood with runny superglue/cyanoacrylate. The gel types will tend to just sit on the surface and will not penetrate into the wood the way the runny type does.
For the OP, @Nich2752 , they should remove the screws one at a time then drip several drops of runny superglue into each hole. Wait a minute or two or spray accelerator into the hole. Reinstall the screw. It should take a lot more effort like screwing into a piece of solid hardwood. If not, remove the screw and apply more superglue. Be sure to wear latex or nitrile gloves on both hands so one doesn’t “become one with the robot” like certain mentors have
If you are in the U.S., the 99 Cents Only Stores are a convenient and inexpensive source for superglue. Tilt the package so you can see the bottom of the bottle and gently shake it. You should be able to see the fluid move in response. The gel types will move very slowly.
Have not tried super glue but wood glue is excellent for this . its Loctite for wood screws with the added benefit it strengthens the wood as it absorbs into it fairly far.
Wood glue should work but will take a lot longer to be absorbed into the wood and to set and reach full strength.
Edit sorry meant to reply to the thread overall rather than directly to your post @Wayne_Doenges
Yes, the newer bumper weight limits make it tough to have full length bumpers and aluminum angle top and bottom unfortunately. Last year and this one we’ve had to omit one piece of the angle, which is a break from our traditional construction.
Put countersunk holes in the back of the angle (so screws will be going into the plywood through your bumper material, which wraps around the back of the plywood) at about 3 or 4 inch intervals and use a nice solid countersunk screw like this https://www.mcmaster.com/90610A148 and you should have no problem with exposed wood on top of plywood or fabric getting ripped off. However, make sure you have enough fabric to begin with!
If budget/time permits have the fabric laminated after team numbers have been applied (obviously before you try to use the fabric in constructing the bumpers). It helps durability significantly.
From a practical perspective, I like the advice Peyton, Dave and others gave: fix it now because there isn’t much upside to ignoring what appears to technically be a violation (albeit one that would not diminish the quality of the competition, were it ignored). Why be at the mercy of others when you can control your own destiny?
From a philosophical perspective, I like the fact that this offers a nice, safe case study in morality.
Is a team obliged to comply with the letter of a suboptimal rule, and at what point does it become outrageous? Does the fact that they have advance suspicion, credible advice, and apparently adequate time and resources tend to require more compliance than if they had discovered it at the side of the field before the match? Might they decide to make a deliberate gesture of noncompliance to protest the rule?
Is the inspector obliged to call it if they see it, because the rule is clear that the exterior (top) wood must be fabric-covered? Or is the rule not actually clear (as to the meaning of exterior)? Is it simple common sense to pass them because nobody is being harmed, or is everyone harmed when officials take matters into their own hands to selectively enforce rules? Does it make the situation worse by passing the decision to the referee who has fewer tools and less attention to devote to the question in the heat of the match, or to another inspector who might happen to spot it at a less opportune time? If the inspector who spots it has a reasonable solution at hand, and offers it, is a more stringent ruling more justifiable?
If there are so many complicating factors, how are other teams and other officials supposed to discern whether the handling of this robot is or should be a precedent or an anomaly?
Can we even make everyone happy simultaneously? Who should bear the burden?
Bumper rules questions are perennial (e.g. my opinions from a 2010 situation), and probably have the worst ratio of controversy to physical significance of any part of the robot. We’ve gotten better, but there is still some way to go.
Laminated? Could you explain what you mean here
After applying the team numbers to the fabric, you can have the material to be laminated with a thin plastic coating which (in theory at least! ) makes it a bit more durable. Application of the digits and lamination might possibly be done by the same company depending on their equipment.
Lamination definitely reduces the chance of digits losing adherence to the fabric and flopping around. Beware it also makes the bumper material significantly stiffer and more challenging to fold neatly, whether it’s worth the cost & tradeoff is a decision for each individual team to make.