Israel DCMP Q62 - World record field fault!

I wanted to address this situation before it gets any unwarranted attention for the wrong reasons. During Q62 of the Israeli DCMP we were matched up with 1577 and 4338, while it was a good match by our alliance it was no where near as good as the score indicates, the field miscounted the balls in two separate occasions during the first 30 seconds of teleop which ended up adding between 12-18 balls to our upper goal tally - and around 30 point (I’m having a hard time getting an exact number from rewatching the video on my phone, but it’s very clearly mistaken).

There’s the match video for anyone interested:

We tried to push for a rematch because we don’t want the ‘fake’ publicity, but there was no justification for it according to the rules - the match outcome wasn’t affected at all.

All that being said, this situation brings up a more important topic - these sort of field faults have been happening throughout the competition season and actually making alliances gain RPs and winning/losing matches. Just one occasion that caught my eyes a few weeks back:

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxIbKSA6by51HKRaPJDeO98zglmJ_GTgPE

I think since most of these instances have happened in ‘lower profile’ matches FIRST simply let it slide or even ignored it, but something needs to be done!
At some point these over counts / miss counts are bound to decide the result of playoff matches and competitions.

The teams do their best to stage competitive robots, FIRST has to deliver on their end of the deal and make the field 100% reliable which is not the situation at the moment!

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I believe the rules state it needs to be impactful to the tournament outcome to justify a replay… not necessarily the match outcome. Being that the second ranking sort is average score, every single one of these types of field faults is justifiable to replay. Even a handful of unearned points can be enough for one team to jump another in average alliance score. It’s even more significant when it awards an unearned RP.

We had this happen to us again at the Great Northern Regional. The match video for Qualification 54 is suspiciously the only match video not uploaded to TBA… I didn’t catch it live, and nobody on our alliance requested a replay, but a member of the opposite alliance approached us on Saturday morning (day after the match) asking what they should do. @ADCyay might be able to relay what they were told since I wasn’t there. Ultimately it was never replayed.

It’s a known issue that causes these field faults. When a ball bounces violently through the sensors it generates a miscount. It doesn’t happen overly frequently, so FIRST really should adopt a more charitable replay policy for these situations considering their field is failing.

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Unfortunately, my team did not get the chance to discuss the issue with match 54 and I felt nothing would really be accomplished by it. I do wonder what they would have said or altered (if anything).

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Too bad we can’t watch elims :frowning:

EDIT Looks like Twitch is up for now

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Too late, I’ve seen one which was a playoff tiebreaker where the FMS undercounted one alliance by about 10 cargo and they ultimately lost by 5 (would’ve won by 15).

From the outside, I don’t see what FIRST is doing to try to fix it, but that doesn’t mean they’re not doing anything… Would love to see this addressed and fixed.

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To be clear at the start of this I think any scoring this egregiously wrong should result in an automatic replay whether it effected the match or tournament outcome or not. But as of right now the the rules do not say that. So lets take a look:

So reviewing the match video the blue alliance rightfully earns all 4 of their RP so the determination would come down to if average score becomes important. Well 1577 was rank 1 with 46 RP, 1690 was rank 2 with 45 RP, and 7067 was rank 3 with 42 RP, so average score was not a factor. If we look at 4338 they were rank 15 with 32 RP, while 3316 was rank 16 also with 32 RP so technically 4338 has the chance to become an alliance captain while 3316 does not so the tournament could be affected by this change in ranking (both ranks receive the same district points as well so that is not a factor).

In order for 4338 to outrank 3316 they need to score 121 points in this match. It looks like 17 “phantom” cargo are scored which is 34 points that are not deserved, that would give the blue alliance a score of 157, meaning even without the fault 4338 outranks 3316.

So no technically speaking this field fault does not affect the “tournament” since no ones ranking was affected by it. I imagine if the difference between 4338 and 3316 could have been affected if the match was properly counted they would replay it but since it wasn’t they didn’t.

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The opposite, actually. From section 11.3:

If, in the judgment of the Head REFEREE, an ARENA FAULT occurs that affects the outcome of the MATCH and any team on the affected ALLIANCE desires a replay, the MATCH will be replayed.

Separately, FIRST can decide to replay a match even if a team doesn’t request it when it impacts the outcome of the event as a whole:

FIRST Headquarters reserves the right to, with consultation of the Head REFEREE and the FTA, replay a MATCH in which an ARENA FAULT impacts the outcome of an event.

Also note that the blue box in 11.3 defines the outcome of the match, which does not include the point totals:

The outcome of the MATCH is affected if an error occurs that, in the judgement of the Head REFEREE, changes which ALLIANCE would have won the MATCH and/or the assignment of Ranking Points.

And the event:

The outcome of an event is affected if an error occurs that, in the judgement of FIRST Headquarters, changes the assignment of Ranking Points or has a dramatic effect on points used for ranking criteria.

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Thanks for clarifying Bryan!

This is the second time this channel has received a strike. Wonder what they are doing wrong as they don’t play music during the stream and even so it’s very unlikely a channel would be taken down live on Twitch for this.

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The field fault from match 54 at GNR can be found here.

You can see 4728 shoot for the high goal but we lined up to far back, and one off the balls went into the low goal. If you watch the low goal counter it goes from 0 to 7 to 15. We only scored one low goal at that time so it gave us an extra 14 low goal balls. The outcome of the match would have been the same however the blue alliance would not have receive the cargo ranking point. We didn’t notice the issue until one of our spectators mention something seemed off so we dug through the twitch to find the video. That was Friday night so on Saturday morning we talked to some 4607 team members about what to do. Ultimately we decided not to do anything and just watch the rest of our matches closely to ensure it doesn’t happen again.
The full match can be found here at 8 hours 23 minutes.

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The music lining up perfectly to this saying “check this out” made me laugh way too hard here.

FYI, Tech Valley Regional Quals 43 received a replay at the end of qualification matches the next day.

That’s match affecting.

Again, this is match affecting and a place to ask for a replay.

https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.net/frc2022/Manual/TeamUpdates/TeamUpdate17.pdf Would you go beyond this change? In this instance, it was looking at the wording that required an affected team to ask for the replay and instead now allows the event itself to trigger a replay without the teams needing to be aware and ask. Are you thinking of lowering what decides the bar for “outcome of the MATCH”? If so, I’d be curious what thoughts you’d have.

I don’t think I’d go beyond the change in Team Update 17. I certainly think the bar for changing the outcome of the match should consider the number of ranking points earned. My concerns go more towards the implementation of Team Update 17 by the field staff than it does the actual wording of the update.

RP make for an interesting issue that I believe led to TU17.

Prior to TU17, the rule was really “teams have to ask”

Teams getting the RP had little incentive to ask so replays would be outside of the rules. I’d expect that to be cleaned up with the update and would be more surprised if a replay didn’t happen.

Israel DCMP Q62 makes my head spin. I am too old to scout cargo for this match. If anyone did, it would be interesting to know the actual count that Blue put up.

Side question: the GA was calling the match in English. Is that common at Israel DCMP? I have heard many matches at ISR district events called in Hebrew. Do they alternate languages?

4338 Falcons played in that match- they are from an American International school in Israel so the game announcers like to announce their games in English

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I watched the video and my math says they were awarded 27 extra High Hub Blue Cargo. This is puzzling as a reason why this happened escapes me.