Is it just me, or do other folks feel it is not in the spirit of FIRST to allow robots to be dragged, pulled or otherwise kidnapped. I called FIRST to try to convince them that the matches will be too much like Battlebots if this is allowed. They said they MAY change the rule because a few teams have also complained. An updated is coming out tonight.
I know I can come up with a robot design that will let me grab an opponents robot pull them into the endzone and watch my partner just grab one more goal to almost insure us a win. But I think I would make a lot of enemies in the FIRST community.
Just my opinion. I’m sure others disagree -so let’s hear it.
I think any extra brain power teams have to put into thinking about dealing with other robot potentially damaging their robot when lifting is just a waste… It don’t really add any education value to this project, and it’s starting to get to the bad side of human nature.
The pushing and the heavy goals in the game already call for a robust robot design already, so why have another thing to add more head to head competition between robots?
Pushing robots away imply defense and de-scoring, which is fine in a competition. But pulling or hoisting or fork lifting seems to imply that stronger robots can bully yours around, and can take advantage of a weaker robot, just because they aren’t designed to be a bully robot… So defense¡K Or demonstration of power wins more… You can do the math
And, especially with this year’s shipping rule, you cannot take home your robot after the regionals to do repairs… You really want to prevent as much damages as possible.
And, I don’t think rookie teams or 2nd year teams will be prepared for this kind of physics interaction between robots this year, especially with last year’s competition.
Pick up or dragging another’s robot is just like pinning. I think the pinng rule should apply. The end result would be like a cat and mouse game, somewhat entertaining.
If FIRST is going to change the pull/kidnapping rule, they should do it NOW so that is is fair to everyone designing the robots.
Flame on. Incidental contacts such as pushing are OK. Pulling and kidnapping really make the game a robot battle. Every robots will be speding all two minutes pulling and pushing each other.
>Q: Can one robot lift another robot up using a fort lift type device?
If so for how long? Does the pinning rule apply to that?
>A: Yes, and yes the pinning rule does apply. Please read the Entanglement Clarification post and the rules on pinning.
It looks like they’re getting more strict on the kidnapping rule. This ruling relates directly to lifting, but I’d argue that it can be extended to grabbing as well.
I agree with all of you! The rule should be changed or made stricter. No matter what, you can be sure that 217 will not be designed to lift or pull another robot.
Disclaimer:
If you are pulling on a goal and we are pulling on a goal, then we apologize for pulling you our way.
Everyone was so excited when they found out that it was going to be on 2 vs 2… but I disagree. Kamens reasoning is obviously for publicity, but robotics is shown best when it BENIFITS rather than harms- and that is what is seen when you see robots FIGHTING- which leads to Battlebots! You might as well have a chainsaw and spikes on your robot!!
Before I get flamed let me apologise (sp?) - We complain when they create a game with zero contact (that would be last years game) and we complain when they allow contact, even though FIRST clearly states to build your robots robust as there may be incidental contact - and now we complain when they go even further towards the robot gladiator thinking and allow pulling. Is it me or do just like to complain? Or, is it FIRST that simply over reacts from year to year and justifies it by changing this rule to drive us nuts? I have no idea what they were thinking! How is a referee ever gonna be able to establish what the allowable standard will be regarding this rule and be able to share it among all of the referees at 17 regionals so to establish a consistant approach ? Hey FIRST, if you are listening - I’m not whining - I’m just telling you that you are not going to be able to have consistancy if this rule is allowed to stand. Get real, and revise this to pushing only, as it will reduce the number of really ticked off unprofessional reactions when accidentally or purpose destruction occurs. Otherwise, be prepared to see really ugly people and that would be even worse that simply allowing total destruction (Battlebots mentality). I also am sure it could reduce the entanglement issues that will be increased if you don’t change the rule. Keep the faith gang - I believe FIRST will clarify this rule and eliminate “pulling”. Thats just my 2 cents worth.
Anton - Great design using all 12 motors on your drive train - changing the rule to only pushing shouldn’t bother you at all - Now your robot would be the supreme pusher bot !!!
I believe that the kidnapping (if it happens) wont be as violent as everyone says it will be. If you grab a robot and lift it off of the ground so it cannot drive away that is impressive, so why not allow it? It adds a whole different dimension. Like stealing a harvester before it starts to harvest or a goal controller before it get’s a goal. (oops did i say that)
Kacz,
No doubt or arguement that the rule would allow a new dimension - I just don’t think that the dimension would be of positive value to the FIRST robotics experience. I don’t think that a team would intentionally try and damage the opponents robots before they could successfully complete the tasks designed for now would they! But, is the new dimension going to be worth it to the team that gets its controller speared or wiring accidently ripped off of it? Since the time and effort to repair these will essentially be reduced, replacing mangled parts becomes a lot more trouble. I know, now comes the speech about designing the robot to be robust, making sure that bad things can’t happen - easier said than done, unless the robots are reduced to wedge bots, and upside down saucers (I think these are how certain robot are made to survive another robot game I’ve seen on TV).
For all the excitement it will add - I think the downside far outweighs it!
*Originally posted by Anton Abaya *
**We’ve put all 12 motors on our drive train!!! Our main strategy is to drag 2 robots and 3 goals with us!
I say kidnap-happy everyone! “Build sturdy bots.” Though I wonder how a robot will kidnap us if they cant keep up with us.
-anton **
If you use all 12 motors for the drive train you don’t have any left to lift the goals so you get good traction. We are only using 10 motors for our drive train.
I still dont agree and most likely will never because of what has happened to previous years robots. Even last years robot (granted it was our fault). If you dont know last year our team created an arm that extended 14feet high and we fell over and smashed our ALumn gear box into aprox 5 pieces. Yet we did rebuild it with help from Chief Delphi (thank you). We also fell over at the same height and bent the arm by falling on the side rail causing some major bending but because of the way we made it the arm survived and is still working today. So if we can do it everyone can! But please lets not fight over this!
Sorry if you took my response as trying to start an arguement - I just wanted to make a point that I thought was overlooked. As in many messages on this board - ALL opinions are welcome.
And I do remember the situation that you mentioned as I was in New Hampshire. Good Luck this year - make the robot “robust” enough to keep it from destroying itself it it falls on itself. Also, watch out for flying soccer balls!
