Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball

At the San Diego regional Friday morning drivers meeting, it was announced that there was a new rule that you could not posses a trackball and while possessing the ball, knock another ball off.

Was this announced at the other regionals? It doesn’t look like there is another team update.

This does not sound kosher. I have not heard of this rule anywhere else, and by looking at this years rule and previous years rules, a possessed track ball used in anyway in the game is considered part of the robot, thus making it legal to knock off, but not to hold another one.

Not in the rules, unless <G27> applies. The Updates are silent on the matter.

I’m going to explore <G27> a bit. Here it is:

<G27> HERDING TRACKBALLS – ROBOTS may HERD one or more TRACKBALL at one time.
ROBOTS shall not HERD a TRACKBALL while also being in POSSESSION of a second TRACKBALL. A PENALTY will be assigned for each infraction.
Now, the definition of Herding:
HERDING: Controlling the position and movement of a TRACKBALL while the TRACKBALL is not supported by any ROBOT (i.e. supported by the TRACK or other TRACKBALLS) shall be considered HERDING. Both continuous and intermittent contact between the ROBOT and TRACKBALL are permissible methods of HERDING. E.g. bumping, plowing or dribbling a TRACKBALL around the TRACK are all considered forms of HERDING.
Hmm…Controlling the motion is mentioned as being one thing that constitutes herding. I’m not so sure that the motion is controlled, but…

I’d say it sounds like an interpretation of . Admittedly it’s a little stretched. The only question is whether or not the GDC would support it.

I would be very interested in any additional info on this. We did this in St. Louis very successfully and received points for doing it .:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

When you say “new rule” it makes me think it would be in an update after week 1. I looked at the updates and there is nothing evenly closely related to it. I really have no idea where they got that rule from. You should question them on that.

This is another one of those rules that would be much easier to understand with some physical examples to view. my interpretation of G27 is that you cannot POSSESS a track ball and herd another - yet you can herd both at the same time. Possession of a track ball is carrying it in some way. There is no mention of knocking another ball down while carrying one. Of course, knocking the ball down during teleo. does not get you any points anyway so i’m not sure what the problem is. Also, you cannot carry the ball across the line and get points - so not sure if that applies either. In any case, I certainly have not heard any rule that sounds like what you are referring to.

I recall watching 217 knock down an opposing trackball while possessing their own. This was done en-route to a buzzer-beating hurdle. Clearly the play swung the match.

The play was very cool, and didn’t violate any rule I know of. You can probably watch it online somewhere – link anyone?

[edit]It was the second match of the Finals. Red wins 78-70 on 217’s descoring of a blue bonus ball (using their own ball), and subsequent last-second hurdle.

I’m with EricH here. This is a reasonable interpretation of <G27>. Intentionally pushing a TRACKBALL in a particular direction (i.e. off the overpass) clearly counts as HERDING.

It seems like there are more rule discrepancies between regionals this year than ever before. I thought referees were supposed to complete an online rules evaluation course.

I agree with where you are coming from, but I’m not sure if that is what they see at thet regional. Joe said they announced it as a “new” rule. is not a new rule, it has not been changed recently. I dont like how the competition is doing this though. I think all regionals should have consistant rules. If they didnt call it in week 1 dont just start calling it in week 2. Ask the GDC so they can inform everyone that that is the rule, and not just someones interpruitation of the rule.

I would agree that it’s not controlled, you are just bumping it, there’s no telling where it will bounce. Of course I’m biased because knocking off a ball and then hurdling in the last ten seconds is just too cool.

Edit: Another thing, isn’t it a penalty for herding the opposing alliance’s trackball, or is it just possessing? If it is a penalty then that would mean that knocking the ball off even if you aren’t possessing one of your own wouldn’t be allowed, which is clearly not the intention of the rules, knocking balls off at the end is sort of key.

I saw team 95 do this at BAE. They are a fairly effective shooter bot, but can’t knock the ball off the overpass unless they have a ball already. They would drive under the overpass with a ball, and shoot their ball straight up into the other ball. They could even catch the ball on the rebound too. :smiley:

Possession of an opponent’s trackball would be a penalty, herding a opponent’s trackball would not. See rule <G29>.

I really need to see this.

At approximately 2 pm, the head referee announced that there was a miscommunication between himself and FIRST and that you are allowed to knock off a ball while possessing another.

I saw it happen once in NJ in practice - 103 hurdled, the ball bounced and the robot happened to be where it came down, right in their cradle. I suspect their drivers were as surprised as anybody, but it sure looked great.

Team 473 also did this at the Oregon Regional

This actually occured at San Diego today with our team. It was match 29 with blue alliance 968 2543 and 701. Our team (2543) was under the red track ball when we fired our arm to remove the track ball when our alliance member was attempting to place our blue ball on the rack. The refs made the penalty call on our alliance member for such a move (even though in fact it was our team to reomve the ball) and we lost the match. ANYWAY, to make a long story short…

we all entered the challenge box and the San Diego Refs formally announced that it is legal to knock off other trackballs while in possession of your own trackball.

They reversed the penatly on this match and we are still waiting for the rankings to change to say that we won this game. If you look on the first website, our match is missing.

Thank you for “forcing” the refs to acknowledge an “error”. Their initial interpretation was a little far-fetched, even for me.

I actually wasn’t at the drive meeting when they announced this (though i am a robocoach) but they must have announced it three times that our main ref was led to believe from another above him in a phone conversation that it was illegal. Im just glad they refeversed the call and didn’t just decide to change it for future reference.