Lack of Referee Replay leads to lack of Gracious Professionalism

During a regional match we had another robot go inside our frame and break the board that all our electronics was attached to. This also blocked our intake and shooter for the rest of the match. The other team received no penalty points or card, but after the match the referee came over to apologize for missing the hit. He emphasized that they could not make a call due to replays not being allowed. The match was a blow-out and our robot working or theirs being disabled would not have changed the outcome.

We were working on our team culture this year and emphasizing gracious professionalism. So although the students were upset, our mentors and parents put the focus on immediate repairs and on needing to design better next year. We had 13 matches and a lunch break before our next match, so we somehow made repairs, screwing in the replacement as we were in the queue.

The offending team did check on our robot from a distance in the pits. They lingered a bit too long, someone must have said something funny (I doubt it was about us), and, of course, our students’ immediate thought was they were laughing at the damage to our robot. They had sense enough to quickly leave.

Here is where I realized the problem with not assessing a card post match. I wanted to go over and talk to the other team and give them an actual update, but couldn’t without seeming accusatory. The damage to our robot was probably going to happen at some point from some hit or another, if only over time.

They also could not approach us and apologize, which it seemed like they really wanted to do. They could not offer assistance or advice, both of which we could have really used from the more experienced team. The teams spent the rest of the regional avoiding each other.

When a rule is interfering with gracious professionalism, I think it needs to be evaluated. Damage to a robot can be event or event season ending. When it happens “unpunished” by another team, that’s asking a lot from our teenagers.

My thought is that a review can only be initiated if there is physical evidence after the match (parts on the field or if there was clearly damage to a robot due to lack of movement or visibly damaged parts). A single drive team member from the damaged robot may bring this to the attention of the head referee immediately after the match who will make the determination to review or not after inspecting the damage. A team may only ask for a review once per regional/district. The head referee may initiate and ask a team if they would like to use their review or not.

Only the event that caused the damage is under review, from initial contact(s) to release. The referee will determine the proper penalty and offending team(s) if any. It is possible that the requesting team incurs a card and/or penalty.

Outcomes:

  • The offender and time of the damage must be clear, if it is not clear when the damage occurs, no action can be taken. (Ex: A robot is hit multiple times during a match. Later, it stops in the middle of the arena without contact.)
  • There is clear evidence of an alliance robot damaging the opposing robot in a way that breaks one or more rules. Penalties are assessed for those infractions.
  • There is clear evidence of multiple fouls causing the damage to the opposing robot which incurs penalties against more than one team in the alliance. (Ex: Blue #1 pins Red #1 against a wall for an extended period. Blue #2 then rams Red #1 with an extended part, causing damage inside the frame.)
  • There is clear evidence that the damaged robot broke a rule as well as the offending robot. Both alliances are assessed proper penalties. (Ex: Red #1 pins Blue #1 to the wall for over 5 seconds of time. While still pinned after the 5 seconds, Blue #1 extends a part which damages Red #1 inside its frame.)

I think keeping the replay limited in this way prevents it from being misused, and unnecessarily delaying matches, while encouraging fair play.

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Replays in FRC have been a topic for years. First has yet to implament them for reasons beyond me but it there are a few reasons that can be suspected. The hard truth is they have not been implamented and until they do teams can fall into situations like yours. I will say my team faced a similar issue back in 2023 at the minisota nort star regional finals 1. A team caused damage inside our frame parimater that should have resulted in a red card and us winning the event as we were able to win the second match and if the red card had been marked we would have won 2 matches. This is a reality teams are facing and in certian cases it has caused a team to not receive a blue banner that they earned. This also caused our alliance partner not to be able to qualify for worlds that year despite having arguably the best robot in minisota that year. If someone from first ends up stumbling across this thread please take action, this is a problem that is plaguing teams.

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It’s unclear from your description whether the referees didn’t see the hit, or if they didn’t see damage.

If they saw the hit and didn’t see damage, a student could come to the question box and ask for the robot to be examined. If the head referee determines that there was damage, the foul and card can be assessed even though the match is over.

But sometimes, everyone knows that there has been damage, but no one had seen what happened to cause it. Referees cannot make a call based on what they think might have happened, only on what they actually saw. This is an unfortunate situation, and if that was what happened the referee was showing GP by apologizing for not having seen the interaction.

Could instant replay have helped in this situation? Perhaps. But that depends on what was being recorded at the time of the hit. Maybe the cameras wouldn’t have caught it either, it was from the wrong angle, or the video would not have been clear enough to see what happened.

There are several technical issues associated with instant replay in FRC, which have been discussed in various threads on CD over time. I am not going to rehash those issues here.

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You mentioned several times that neither your team nor the other team could do something you felt was GP (you couldn’t update them, they couldn’t approach/apologize/advise/help), due to the lack of a card being issued. Why would the card matter? It doesn’t sound like either team was avoiding the other because one of them was felt to have “gotten away”, but it sounds more like the team(s) either believe that there was malicious intent, or feel unfairly blamed; a yellow (or red) card wouldn’t solve that.

I’ve had teams at both the giving and receiving end of on-field damage many times, and the biggest driver of my teams response to both was how the team leaders and mentors reacted. Card or no Card, if we (the mentors) brushed it off and emphasized the repairs, that’s what the team focused on. If we complained about the refs, or the unfair play of the other teams/alliance, that’s what we’d hear about for the rest of the trip.

Replays would definitely solve a lot of problems, but this doesn’t sound like one of them.

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Wouldn’t a card make the conversation even more difficult?

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What do you believe would be accomplished by this?

Do you think giving out yellow and red cards for uncontrolled collisions will somehow increase gracious professionalism?
Do you think a team would somehow be more willing to help fix your robot if you went to the refs and got them a card that could end their tournament?

Also, we all knew from kickoff that robots could extend 12 inches outside their frame perimeter meaning with bumpers if you put anything critical without guarding within 8" of your frame perimeter, you are taking risk that a robot collision won’t happen.

This year our drive team accidentally disabled 3 robots due to heavy defense. Our drive team went to these robots immediately after the matches to apologize and offer assistance with getting their robots fixed.

They did so without any guidance because they know the feeling of having to make a tough fix in a short window. The other teams did not get frustrated with us, they accepted our apologies, and accepted the responsibility for the problem(all 3 were issues with loose connections).

I think it would be much harder to get students to apologize and offer assistance if they get punished for these instances. Penalties should be reserved for instances of severe and intentional damage, ie playing defense with offensive subsystems that sticks outside of the bumper zone.

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