Lathe Tooling/Setups

Over in this thread, $15,000 Capital Investment Budget for New Machines, there was some talk about lathes and what a good setup would look like. I felt this was deserving of it’s own thread all together.

So my question to those more experienced than I, what lathe and tooling would you recommend for a team looking to purchase their first lathe?

I personally am more interested in manual lathe setups, but am sure there are some that would perhaps appreciate input on CNC options too.

Perhaps work around 3 “budget levels”/use cases.

  • Basic/entry level, only needs to be able to machine 1/2" aluminum hex shaft.
  • Intermediate, can handle all you hex shaft needs and turn other/larger aluminum bits and bobs (thinking a climber spool or something similar).
  • And finally, what you would consider your Rolls Royce setup for an FRC team?

Remember, a team that’s never owned a lathe before is going to need tooling as well. It’s not all just about the machine.

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My basic setup

All jokes aside ive seen good things on here for PM-1022V which go for around $2500 If you cannot afford that I would recommend using a hacksaw until you can or a good deal on something else.

I wouldn’t call this the “Rolls Royce” but we have loved our Tormach 15L.
https://tormach.com/machines/lathes/15l-slant-pro-lathe.html

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To add on to this simple setup, all our shafts this year were made by the students cutting thunderhex slightly oversize (1/8"-1/4" over) with a hacksaw, and then I would take them over to a small belt sander with a right angle guide to square off and take the shaft down to size. Worked really great for us considering a lathe was out of the question in our set of circumstances.

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Big subject. I’ll focus on FRC here.

A metal lathe is a good investment, particularly a ‘screw-cutting’ lathe (it can cut screw threads). The important numbers are swing (largest diameter) and length. 6" is a small swing, 10" is adequate for most anything, 16" is too large. Length should be in the ~18-30" range, but longer is OK.

Bigger machines have bigger holes through the headstock, meaning a shaft can slide into and through the chuck for machining. This is important. Less than 1/2" hole in the spindle is too small. 3/4" is a good, generous size. The Grizzly below has a 25 mm spindle hole.

Tooling, toolholders and accessories can be expensive. Try to buy a lathe like a Grizzly G0602 that comes with the accessories you’ll need. Get a cabinet unless you can fabricate a very sturdy one, it needs to be very rigid.

Tooling (cutting bits) are not expensive. You can get a nice set of carbide tools with the five basic shapes for maybe $60. Blank steel bits are under $10, you can grind them yourself, but few do that today except for a special-purpose bit.

Tool holders are more expensive. A good AXA-size tool holder base and a couple of tool holders can be $150, or over $1000 for an Aloris brand. A cut-off tool, a set of boring bars, etc. are all in the $100 range or less.

Accessories can be very expensive, but a new lathe usually comes with more than you need. A 3-jaw chuck is most useful, but there are times when only a 4-jaw chuck will do. Get both if possible.

Also, the type headstock and tailstock tapers (MT-2,- 3, R8, etc) influence the cost of accessories. Morse Taper (MT) are very common and thus somewhat less expensive.

By far the most important tool is a book on how to use and care for the lathe. Selecting the right bit, feed, and speed will deliver best performance, Caring for the machine will let it last a literal lifetime. I have an Atlas 10D lathe that is from the 1950s, it was cared for and still cuts great, I can get better than 0.001" accuracy out of it with care. South Bend’s “How to use a Lathe” (PDF link) is a good choice, there are others. My copy is from 1934, and very little has changed from then…

I have oils, greases, and lots of brushes and cloths to keep the lathe clean, and it gets cleaned after each and every usage. Be sure your students understand this requirement. Unlike, say, a drill press, a dirty and un-oiled lathe will fail in a relatively short time. Even my CNC doesn’t get hurt by not cleaning it often, unlike the lathe.

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Outsourcing

That’ll be something with a quick change tool post and a tool library (DRO integrated), and all the tooling on carbide inserts. Anything more and you should be using a CNC turning center.
You’ll want something capable of threads on the coarse size for winch drums.
Collet chuck is nice, but annoying to swap around all the time. If you have two machines one should be a collet though.

The machine itself…up to what you think you’ll use and if anybody else shares the space. Objectively, anything with a bed longer than 4’ would be impossible to use on an FRC robot, and and getting past a foot is impractical unless you’re like me and use the lathe for sketchy polishing jobs. Something with an unusually large through hole spindle will often come in handy.

A harbor Fright mini lathe with some crazy engineer “adjustments” does what my team needs in terms of messing with 1/2" hex shaft. Having a cheap DRO on it is a MAJOR improvement, great $$ to performance ratio. You will be a lot more happy with it if you widen the footprint to match the chip pan. Before that it woggled back and forth a lot.

That said, I have a vintage Hardinge lathe at home! If you wanted a super fancy one, that’s a good choice! Extremely precise and not too large for FRC stuff. Also super expensive with expensive tooling, at least if you buy new.

A collet closer with a 1/2" hex collet would be sweet for FRC. That’s what I use for FRC shafts at home.

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I don’t have any recommendations for buying, but I would strongly recommend NOT buying this: Baileigh MLD-1022 Mill Drill Lathe | Combo Lathe Mill | Baileigh Industrial

From personal experience, it is absolute garbage, documentation is awful, and you know it’s bad because there are so few videos on youtube about how to use it. It’s a budget option, but it’s not worth it.

(in general, 3-in-1 machines are not going to be as good as each machine individually, but there are some that aren’t that bad for super basic FRC machining. Usually they are a decent lathe, an awkward drill press, and an okay mill)

We have this and I think it’s great. It is more lathe than needed, but it’s been nice to occasionally be able to put large stuff through the 1-1/2" spindle bore. We got it with the DRO.

We often use these e-clips so we use these thin bits plus the associated holder

bxa quick change or similar is also recommended with some turning tools like this

We occasionally use the drill chuck to put a whole in the center of an axle. I am looking at getting gun taps (I believe that’s what I’m supposed to be looking into anyway) to tap the ends of an axle in the future on the recommendation of one of our mentors, but I need to make sure I know what I’m buying there before I go off and buy it.

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we also have a HF lathe, primarily to introduce students to the concept of turning things on a lathe - it’s a lot less scary than the big one and therefore way more approachable for a new student. It can work in a pinch, but our machining expert mentor has put quite a bit of TLC into it and we still have issues occasionally with it.

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Gun taps are great, as long as your holes either go through or are much deeper than the thread needed!
You might also want to look at thread forming taps… They work like those funny churro screws where the end is a little bit tri-lobular. You start with a larger hole than normal and you form the Aluminum out AND in. You end up with strong threads and a hole smaller than you started with. They are MUCH stronger than regular taps too.

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Roll/form taps are great! They’re typically stronger and they can create stronger threads. They’re also super useful for blind holes when chip packing at the bottom is a concern. You didn’t hear it from me :slight_smile: but you can also use a bottom cutting tap to easily create threads at the bottom of a blind hole (especially when the print calls out for full thread to a full depth). …very difficult to check without destroying the part.

Anyhow, a problem with roll/form taps (even in professional machine shops) is a user will grab it thinking it’s a cutting tap and try to tap a hole that was drilled for a cutting tap (hole is smaller). Part is likely ruined and tap is probably broken.

Good point there! A sneaky addition I made to our lathe was buying a few cheap MT2 to ER adapters and installing the favorite drills in them. They are radically shorter than a drill chuck, make it easy to color code the drill plus tap, and help slow down the students losing the tap drill :wink: I probably also need to come up with a MT2 tap starter tool. Hmmmm.

Your team has never owned a lathe before. I’m gonna assume you also do not have an experienced machinist either or you likely wouldn’t be asking your questions. Forgive me if I’ve assumed too much. So with that in mind…

I’d suggest not buying an entry level machine. You’ll outgrow it pretty fast.
I’d suggest not buying a Rolls either. You can better spend the money on tooling and accessories.

So, Mama bear is best for FRC, IMHO. Without going into specific brands or models, I’d look for one that that can accommodate a collet closer (“Royal” collet closer style). This allows for a stop to be used in a collet and repetition of parts is much easier. …You’re always gonna be making multiple widgets. A collet (and collet closer) will greatly increase your efficiency.

A collet set and closer infers a thru hole in the head to be at least 1.125" diameter. That will determine the minimal lathe size (swing). Bed length will vary. A lot.
You can buy a lathe with a thru holes less than 1.125" but that won’t maximize the efficiency of the 5C collets.

You can look into a full collet set or just the major fractional sizes you work with. The larger the set, the more it cost.
Be sure to purchase collets that have a threaded internal hole. These accommodate threaded stops which work better than friction stops in the non-threaded hole version. …the friction stops can be used in a threaded hole, but I wouldn’t buy one in the first place. …remember, the outer diameter of the tail end of the collet is always threaded for whatever device closes that collet (Royal collet closer or other method).

The three jaw chuck should have an adjustable backing plate so you can dial in the concentricity semi-permanently. Yes, a four jaw can do this, but you’ll be doing it with every part. Inefficient. The three jaw should also have bolt on jaws so you can replace the factory steel jaws and also use machinable soft (Aluminum) jaws. …learn how to machine soft jaws on both your lathe and mill.

A steady rest is also useful for FRC parts. It’ll help stabilize long parts. A back burner project for me is to replace the standard bronze guides with bearing. I’d recommend that too.

Use a quick change tool post and holders (Aloris or clone). I prefer the wedge lock style over the cheaper piston lock style (just the way I was taught and used most of my career). A quick change tool post will allow you to, well, quickly change tools! Say: face the part, change tools to turn a diameter, change again to part off. You can easily keep repeating process cuz, remember, you’re gonna be making more than one widget.

DRO are cheap these days, but don’t skimp too much. You want one that will accept multiple tool offsets. …to take more advantage of your quick change tool post.
Shouldn’t be an issue, but ensure there is a diameter reading as well as radii reading. You’ll really want the X axis to read in diameter. Once you have the diameter turning tool set up, you can cut/turn directly to a specific diameter. Radii needs some arithmetic and is thus a place for silly mistakes.
If you mount the slides yourself, ENSURE they are parallel with the axis travel.
If a DRO is out of budget, 2" travel dial indicators with magnetic bases will work for most FRC parts. …I have a setup like this at home with my POS lathe. Trav-a-dial is another option. But by the time you buy one for each axis, you’re getting close to cheap DRO pricing.

Grinding HSS tools is a learned art. Not the hardest thing to do, but you’ll also need a good grinder and wheels with a decent wheel dresser. Good understanding of how the tool cuts and pressures the part is useful. Learning to grind in “chip breakers” is helpful. So, I’d recommend replaceable carbide inserts. Significantly higher up front costs, but faster and easier in a FRC environment.
If you’re buying inserts, then stay away from the brazed-on carbide “sets”. Those need a diamond wheel to sharpen. You can use a stone designed for carbide, but it’s a lot harder to actually get the edge you’ll want. Actually, you’d probably need the stone for roughing and the diamond for honing the edge.

Look for inserts that have a high rake angle, are “dead sharp”, and are polished for the free flow cutting of aluminum and plastics. Most inserts you’ll buy have a lower rake and larger edge radius for strength and durability on steel, stainless, etc. You’ll need some of those inserts too, but I’ll bet the majority of what your cutting is non-ferrous.
All kinds of new coatings are available for inserts. You can let the marketing folks sell you the proper one for your application. But for a non production environment (like FRC bots), I don’t see the need to pay for anything other than the high polish. Others will likely disagree.

PSA: Tie long hair back AND up. No long sleeves. No draw string (on hoodies, etc.). No dangling ear rings/piercings, necklaces. Learn to control a manual lathe (X, Z handles) when NOT standing in the path of thrown chips (stand off to the right side a bit).
DO NOT extend stock out the back of the head. Do I really need to mention safety glasses with side shield?

I know I didn’t answer your question about what lathe to buy, but I believe almost any lathe that meets your size requirements will work. I hoped to offer some of the after purchase questions.

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I don’t think I’m going to be able to offer much ‘buy this lathe’ advice, but perhaps more thoughts as others have added regarding lathes in general…

Our school is fortunate to have a robust lathing setup, with nine lathes. We have what I’d describe as 5 ‘good/great’ lathes, and 4 ‘okay so long as you baby them to death and don’t do anything too strenuous lathes’.

To get what we have for good/great lathes, you’ll have to dig out your time machine, venture back to 1968 and pick up a Clausing 6956. Place it somewhere you’ll be able to find in the future (or squeeze it into your time machine) and when you get back to 2022, hop on the lathe and go about your business.

All of which is to say, all of our ‘good’ lathes are older than most of the teachers in the building.

On them, we’re slowly changing over all of our tooling to Phase II, quick change style toolposts with Borite tool holders (about $1200 all together, we’ve been doing about one tool post a year). Two of our machines still run lantern-style toolposts . They get the job done, but you have to be diligent in teaching kids how to set them up. With any sort of quick change system, you teach them how to drop them in and that’s really all they need. (I’m not sure you can even buy lathes with lantern style toolposts anymore…)

Our other 4 lathes started out as the other 6 lathes a year ago. They’re budget machines off of Amazon. They get the job done but they’re far from great. The headstock gears are plastic and can shear if you look at the machine funny (and you can’t replace them, I’ve tried). But, alas, they’re the machines I was given. If you treat them right and don’t do anything too crazy, cutting aluminum can still be done easily. Max diameter is around 1" (less for through bore, would be fine for 1/2" hex).

We have three different tooling setups for those mini-lathes, because I was experiment with different options. In general, we use things that use indexable cutting tips so they can be easily replaced, in a variety of different tool holders.

Maintenance-wise, the mini-lathes are more finicky, but I’ve not noticed anything too crazy.

So, basic level. I’d say pretty much anything that can hold your stock will work. If you’re not sure you’ll use the machine much, give a cheap one a shot and figure out if you like it. Better tooling can make a poor lathe a good one. (Worked in my case) But if you think you’ll be doing more, don’t go cheap, you’ll hate every moment once you understand that it’s not doing that very basic thing it should be doing that you want it to do.

I don’t know what I’d consider a ‘Rolls Royce’ setup, but I’m a big fan of the buy-it-for-life and ‘buy once, cry once’ line of thinking when it comes to stuff like this. Clearly, it can work out, because someone at my school bought lathes back in the late 1960’s that we’re still using daily in our manufacturing classes.

I totally agree on the polished, sharp, Aluminum type carbide inserts!!! You can use them on almost anything, BTW. At least in our kind of non-production operations.
If you don’t want to put a lot of $$ into your first lathe, a 4 sided tool post set up with cutoff, snap ring groove, facing tool, and turning tool will all you want for shafts; that’s what we have at school. A mini-lathe is plenty of capacity for shafts, and can be easily moved and run off of a standard table.
If you have $$ and SPACE, a real lathe is a better investment, but remember its an investment! A mini-lathe is decent for trying out the idea. Little Machine Shop sells some upgraded mini-lathes that are a nice step up from Harbor Fright. HiTorque 7x16 Mini Lathe | Mini Lathes for Sale - LittleMachineShop.com and I’d add a simple DRO for the long axis. The cross slide is complicated to do on these little lathes.

Oh, here’s the MT2 to ER collet things in the holder. This is a MAJOR improvement on a mini-lathe. A normal drill chuck is irritatingly long!


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Ok, this is slick. Definitely something I wish I had for the brief period of time I had a mini benchtop lathe in my garage.

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Yeah, I wish I had thought of this years ago… On my personal lathe I have a set of center drills in MT taper collets. Also a SUPER useful addition! A couple of stub length drills in your favorite sizes are handy too.


Here’s what I did to spread the foot print and kill the rocking:
image

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Darn you!!! Another tool I must have for my lathe.

The little Chinese 4xXX mini lathes can do lot with 1/2 shafts. There is a large hobbyist community devoted to making them work. If that is all you can afford I would get one. [snark] Just don’t tell 254 and the like. :slight_smile: [/snark] It is a lot easier to work with a larger, stiffer lathe.

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True. And a larger, stiffer milling machine.

The secret to obtaining precision when working with all inferior (cheap) machines is patience.

Old saying that is still true:
You can have it Fast, Accurate, or Cheap. Pick two of the three.

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