Leaving Team

Competition Team Organization
1

Hello everyone,

So, before I begin, I know that Chief often looks down upon using anonymous accounts. However, I would like to post this without revealing the identity of my current team.

This year, we have had many issues (See First Post). We had leaders in place who clearly didn’t have any regard for the core values and would often act with disrespect to many of our other students. Now, we originally benched them, but that didn’t last long at all because they had put themselves into positions where losing them would result in a bad robot. This decision was made by our head mentor (who is a teacher for our local school distance), who stated that she believed that it was more important to be in the best position to win, rather than enforce good character positions. Even after we had an incident at a competition where the leaders argued with a FIRST Official, she still refused to take any action. This resulted in many team members feeling neglected and disregarded, because she wasn’t willing to enforce the policies that we had set in the manual regarding the character standards.

Today, we held our End Of Season Party, and we recognized our new leadership. 1 of the new leaders was the brother of one of our previous problematic ones, and he had not demonstrated good character much during the season. However, his skill was too invaluable, so that was left aside. This concerns me, as I have had many chats with my head mentor, and I believe that she is willing to have everyone be miserable on the team if it means we can win. This is supported by 1 of our college mentors/alumni who also used to be on the team. However, all of our other mentors agree that we need to change our focus to character, but she refuses to change, believing that this year was a once-in-a-lifetime event.

So far, we have lost 2 students and 2 mentors as a result of this behavior. Additionally, we will be losing another 2 because she told the parent that she didn’t want them their on the team. As I am seeing my friends go, I am not sure if this is something I want to be a part of anymore. I don’t want to leave and never do robotics again, because I would lose something that would look excellent on a resume. However, I’m not sure if I want to go through another year of this. Even though a majority of our leadership members (funny enough, these individuals are on the business side of the house) agree with me, I don’t believe that it will matter because it will be vetoed by our mentor.

In short, I guess I want to ask, what options would I have if I left this team? My district already has an abundance of teams, but as odd as this may sound, the ones near me aren’t that good outside of the one I am on right now. However, I’m not sure if I can go through another season of this, and I am already on rocky waters with some of the new leaders of the robot. What should I do?

Thank you for reading this long message, and if you are a current member of my team, I’m sorry, but this is honestly how I feel.

Sincerely,

FRCStressedOut

2

I feel like this thread might relate to some of the issues you seem to feel your team has.

3

As a person that has moved teams, and known many people who have moved teams, it seems that this is possibly the best option for you?

Don’t worry about who is “good” or “not good” performance wise. Find the team that you can integrate with, and success will come. If you have given it a good go with trying to resolve issues, so ultimately you kind of have to decide if you can change the team enough to reach a satisfactory level. No team is perfect, perfection is an illusion that we all chase. :slight_smile:

Anyways my advice is go visit your local teams, hang out with them. See what they are like! Pick your favorite, and join them if possible.

4

You know your team and its members better than us, so I won’t dwell on the rest. But I will say this about the above.

I got one year of participation as a FIRST student–my senior year was when 1293 started. We built what is, by any objective measurement, a god-awful robot. The arm never worked and we were so desperate for a working drivetrain in the pre-kitbot era that we drove the darn thing with window motors. It won two matches. And yet there was enough to that experience (with an assist from S.P.A.M.'s and ComBBAT’s mind-bending robots of that year) to get one non-drive-team member hooked on this program (hi!).

If you’ve got to make a move, you’ve got to make a move. But a crappy robot is a crappy reason to avoid working with a team.

5

I joined my first FRC team as a junior. I really tried to be a great team member. However, it ended up being a terrible experience and I left the team after the first competition. I joined another team. The whole experience was fantastic, but due to a relocation, I joined another team my senior year. Needless to say, I love robotics, but my experience has been bittersweet. I think teams should include more students in the building of the robot and in the competitions. On every team, it seems that a handful of students get to do everything, and everyone else scouts. I think every team should have two drive teams that rotate, giving more students the opportunity to feel the excitement of the competition. There should be multiple pit crews that rotate. FIRST pushes Gracious Professionalism, and it should start within the team. If teams are going to have rulebooks/manuals that are given to the team, they should follow them. I wish all the luck to you. FRC is a great program. So many fantastic mentors dedicate hours of their time. Sometimes change begins with people like you and me.

6

What a terrible reason to stay. If this is the only good thing you’re getting out of FRC, you should leave.

1 Like
7

I’m going to say the same thing in a different way:

Because you have been involved in FRC, you CAN put it on your resume. (Involved as in “you’ve been active on your team” not involved as in “my name is on the roster”. Just a friendly PSA from the folks who may need to verify your involvement.) What that means is that you do not need to stay for resume/college application reasons. If that’s bugging you, then don’t let it. (Scholarship on the other hand… That’s when finding another team would be nice.)

Honestly, if I were you… I might consider taking a year off completely (if I had 2 more years, obviously if you’re a senior the math changes a bit and I’d recommend changing teams instead). A nice letter to the mentors indicating that for your health you’re taking a year off and that you hope to be back after that would go quite far. (A second nice letter, to the school principal, about the OTHER issues may also be in order–if you want to go that route. That’s not necessarily something I’d advise unless you were sure you wanted to risk serious alienation at best.) Enjoy the time off, maybe show up at a competition or two as a spectator (or a volunteer?) but otherwise don’t do much of anything related to FRC. That time off can be incredibly nice and allow you to focus on other things.

8

+1

9

A thought on your team:

Ultimately, I think a team with dedicated members who enjoy the team will be better than a team who has a few “good” people. Additionally, you need to attract talented people to remain a “good” team (whatever that means for you), which your team doesn’t seem to be doing. By removing these people from leadership roles you might be worse in the short term, but in the long term I think you would likely see improvement.

And a thought on your personal situation:

I assume at this point you care about your resume for getting into whatever college you want to get into, or maybe for getting scholarships. I can’t say I’m an expert in college admissions, but I did do that whole college application thing this year. Based on that experience, I think the attitude I had, that of doing things because they look good, won’t get you very far. The better attitude is to do things you love to do (beneficial things though, not like sleeping or playing video games), and think of the resume as a sort of side benefit.
“Good colleges” (again, whatever that means) - maybe MIT or Stanford - are looking for people who have become thoroughly involved in what they love doing. If that’s not robotics, then you should quit and start doing something that you do love. If it is robotics, and you only dislike it because of your team, then you should join a different team.

Again, just my opinion.

Also, sorry for all the quotations on “good.” I guess I’m just in that mood. It wasn’t meant unkindly or anything.

10

i had a similar experience like this when i was a student on another team.
i would rather not go into detail as it only brings up anger for certain experience and a few people that does not represent what first is truly about.

here are some of the things that helped me get through the tough times, i asked myself these questions:

  1. if the people making this unpleasant weren’t here, would i enjoy mentoring the other students.

  2. why am i doing this / what am i trying to achieve?

  3. am i making a impacted on at least 1 students life/experience in a good way?

  4. if i where the annoying student how would i want the mentors to deal with me?

in my experience i can typically find why a difficult student is behave the way they do, its not easy or pleasant. sometimes the student does not even realize they come across AS ( insert personality). even if its the hardest thing you have to do, putting more time in mentoring that student and making it clear you want them to succeed and fit in can make a massive difference in their attitude that is well worth the effort.

for me i did not have the choice to change teams, they made it for me. i did however have the choice to join a team that was starting their 2 season in a 20ft by 20ft cage. and i don’t regret that choice, i am in it to make a positive difference in every students life/goals i have the honor of mentoring, its hard to do this and sometimes be repaid with sarcasm and disrespect, but if it was easy, someone else would have already done it.

i hope you find a solution to your troubles.
Thanks. Tristan

11

Picking out a couple of items:

So, you want to leave your team because they prioritize making good robots over being good people, but you don’t want to go to the other nearby teams because they don’t make good robots? It sounds like you need to decide what your priorities are.

1 Like
12

Settle down with your high horse, there.

People are allowed to participate in this program for any number of different reasons. While it’s incredible that so many become passionate “lifers” that truly are the STEM zealots that Dean talks about, not every participant must be at that level of dedication. Having entirely pragmatic motives (such as boosting your college application or future resume) are entirely legitimate reasons to be involved in FRC. Heck, they might learn a thing or two along the way.

13

Recently my sister was comparing two different job offers. The advice I gave her applies to you as well, I think: Money is great, but enjoying what you do and who you work with is more important. You have to ask yourself what you’re getting out of being on the team. Would being on it another 1-2 years inspire you more? Would you learn more? Would you grow new skills? Once you can solidify what you’re getting, you have to ask yourself if it’s worth it. Is your stress and unhappiness worth what you’re getting from the team? In most cases I would say no. Really the only reason I could see sticking around is if the possibility of a FIRST-related scholarship would be the difference between attending college or not.

Take your drive and passion and go elsewhere. Other local teams aren’t that good? Go in and help them be better. Or stay out of FIRST entirely if none of them are a good fit. FIRST is a great vehicle for getting kids involved with STEM, but you don’t have to be on a team to pursue your STEM passion. Find another outlet and enjoy the rest of your time in school. Back when I was in school, we didn’t have FIRST in my area. I grew up pursuing STEM my own way and am no worse off for it.

14

This. Our team has had years with lots of turmoil and fantastic robots, years where we had the best time ever and a weak robot, and years where we had fantastic times and fantastic robots.

What payoff are you looking for through your participation in FRC? If you stay and fight this out (whatever that means for you) you might find it to be a character building experience for you. The working world is filled with examples like the one you described. You are not always going to agree with your counterparts or the direction a CEO/ manager/department head is going to take the company/department etc. On the other hand maybe jumping ship is what you need especially your senior year. Robot season is stressful enough without adding bickering and infighting to the mix with exams, college and scholarship applications etc.

The only thing you can control are your actions and behaviors. The best leaders are those who lead by example. Good luck in your decision and what ever it is I hope it turns out the best for you.

15

Your physical, mental, and emotional health are more important than being part of a team that makes good robots. It sounds like you’ve already made an effort to talk this out with your head mentor to no avail. Your current team does not sound like a healthy environment for you.

I recommend getting to know members of other area teams and joining one of them. Forget about robot performance and winning. You want a team that values good teamwork and its members’ character over their skills. A successful FIRST team builds cooperative STEM-loving people, not necessarily good robots. You’ll only know who those teams are if you get to know them personally.

If you have some off-season events in your area, you might consider volunteering. It gives you a different perspective on events. The atmosphere I’ve encountered as a volunteer tends to be appreciative, low drama, and fun. It’s also fantastic for getting to know people on other teams.

16

Ultimately, your health is the most important thing here. It would be better to enjoy the experience than feel constantly stressed to make an amazing robot. If the members of problematic leaders’ groups are willing to talk to them, that might help as well. If you truly feel the need to leave, then trust your gut. With so many teams, I’m sure you could find one that works for you. Good luck on your decision, and I hope you choose what’s best for you.

17

I kind of want to play devil’s advocate here and point out that many of the folks you’ve mentioned in leadership positions are all highly valued for their skills they bring to the team.

Maybe there is something else you need to evaluate here if you want more of an impact on your team’s culture. If you could bring more skill to the table, you may be a more valued member of the team and could be more of a leader.

Building a competitive machine is important and done the right way can also lead to building students of strong character. These two things are not mutually exclusive.

As a former student turned mentor, I can’t fully trust this side of the story now that I know what goes into decisions teachers and mentors have to make and why.

Not to say you may not already be a valuable member of the team, but wanting to gain more skills to be more valued should also be a priority of yours so that you can become a role model of both skill and character for other members and mentors on your team.

PS - if arguing with a FIRST official means you’re a person of poor character, most good mentors I know are people of poor character by your anecdote.

The reason I hate anonymous accounts asking for help is because I have no context with which to help you. For all I know you’re spouting complete BS about your team.

Feel free to PM me with your real username and I can give you better advice. The team and mentors are not always the ones at fault. Many times the student needs an attitude adjustment, I sure know I did when I was on team 11 and thought everyone else was in the wrong.

As for your health - if this keeps you going - keep doing it. If it doesn’t, then search for something less stressful.

1 Like
18

I can echo this. Granted, there are right and wrong ways to argue with an official. So long as you maintain GP while discussing the difference of opinion and try to keep emotion out of it, you’re probably alright. It’s when people fly off the handle that we have a problem :slight_smile:

19

Actual GP. Not whatever twisted version of GP some folks cling to. When asking a safety inspector to provide a source for his ruling and then telling him I plan on ignoring it because it’s not based on the rulebook and by their own admission is less safe than alternatives is called “un GP” I think the definition is messed up.

And prior to folks thinking this is a jab at Jon, it’s not. I’m just clarifying, I agree with what he’s saying here overall.

I’d also argue that folks WILL lose their cool from time to time, doesn’t mean they are of “poor character” just that they are human. How they handle it after wards is probably more important.

20

Moving into the unknown can be scary. I’m sure you’re looking for a familiar feeling team with the problems you mentioned in your first post to be fixed. The truth is you probably will not find that. Every team is unique and there is no “one size fits all” structure.

As others have said you can take a year (or even just the off-season) off and let things cool. This will allow you to make a well though out decision. Maybe the correct thing for you to do is to look for a FTC or VRC team rather than a FRC team.