Location, location, location...

FIRST General Forum
1

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/16/99 12:11 PM MST

Well, I’ve been working some more on the Cal Robotics project. Here’s what I found out:

The Cal student shop is too busy with other projects. I seriously doubt it would be adequate for our intents.

So here’s my plan…

I have been trying to find a sponsor company with a machine shop and some extra space, as it is my understanding that many teams operate out of a sponsor’s shop. Is this true, or are there too many liabilities involved? If true, do the students actually get to do the machining? This is one thing I feel very strongly about. I need to have the students build the thing, not the engineers.

Let me know! Any info would help…

Thanks in advance,
-Daniel

2

Posted by MaryEllen, Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 5/16/99 1:06 PM MST

In Reply to: Location, location, location… posted by Daniel on 5/16/99 12:11 PM MST:

: Well, I’ve been working some more on the Cal Robotics project. Here’s what I found out:

: The Cal student shop is too busy with other projects. I seriously doubt it would be adequate for our intents.

: So here’s my plan…

: I have been trying to find a sponsor company with a machine shop and some extra space, as it is my understanding that many teams operate out of a sponsor’s shop. Is this true, or are there too many liabilities involved? If true, do the students actually get to do the machining? This is one thing I feel very strongly about. I need to have the students build the thing, not the engineers.

: Let me know! Any info would help…

:
: Thanks in advance,
: -Daniel

We worked out of a volunteer’s shop but also had a fantastic machinist,
Larry Nolan, who had access to CNC equipment and cut a lot of very
complex parts. The students did do machining, design work and assembly, but when it
came to fabrication of some components, like custom-cut Lexan gears, go
with a pro!
If you limit the students’ design options to the machining skills of the
students, you’re putting an unneccessary limit on creativity. And real-world
engineers rarely work the machine/production shop. The talent is in being able to
communicate your ideas accurately through the blueprints. Don’t confuse
engineering with shop class - you’ll lose some of the girls joining your
team who may have fantastic ideas but little mechanical experience.
A few companies are willing to train the students and allow them to
make parts, but I’m afraid that most see it as an insurance risk and would
prefer to cut parts themselves. Go with it! If you can get a machinist or two
to volunteer, you are truly blessed!

MaryEllen

3

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/16/99 1:25 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Location, location, location… posted by MaryEllen on 5/16/99 1:06 PM MST:

I agree. It would be silly to completely limit the robot to parts students can make in a normal shop.

However, engineering and shop class are perhaps more related than you’re giving them credit. You see, with no practical manufacturing experience, an engineer can get into a lot of trouble. Our team works with the head machinist from NASA Ames to make complex parts such as our drivetrain sprockets. He loves to vent about how today’s engineers often design parts that border on the impossible where machining is concerned. It is important that students learn how these things are made, and are taught the importance of design simplicity. Having the students machine most of the parts really drives that message home. In fact, even in AutoCAD, a student must always keep in mind the machining process. It helps them know how to dimension, it helps them know how to draw…it helps.

You’d also be surprised how many girls love to use machine tools! Out of necessity, our girls really dive in. They have a great time! In fact, the GRT2000 team is nearly 1/3 girls.

Back to the point though, I didn’t mean engineers can’t build parts, I just wanted to make sure that students would be allowed to use the tools because I feel it helps to have the students build as much as possible.

Thanks for the info! This is very encouraging…
-Daniel

4

Posted by MaryEllen, Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 5/16/99 1:47 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Location, location, location… posted by Daniel on 5/16/99 1:25 PM MST:

: I agree. It would be silly to completely limit the robot to parts students can make in a normal shop.

: However, engineering and shop class are perhaps more related than you’re giving them credit. You see, with no practical manufacturing experience, an engineer can get into a lot of trouble. Our team works with the head machinist from NASA Ames to make complex parts such as our drivetrain sprockets. He loves to vent about how today’s engineers often design parts that border on the impossible where machining is concerned. It is important that students learn how these things are made, and are taught the importance of design simplicity. Having the students machine most of the parts really drives that message home. In fact, even in AutoCAD, a student must always keep in mind the machining process. It helps them know how to dimension, it helps them know how to draw…it helps.

: You’d also be surprised how many girls love to use machine tools! Out of necessity, our girls really dive in. They have a great time! In fact, the GRT2000 team is nearly 1/3 girls.

: Back to the point though, I didn’t mean engineers can’t build parts, I just wanted to make sure that students would be allowed to use the tools because I feel it helps to have the students build as much as possible.

:
: Thanks for the info! This is very encouraging…
: -Daniel

As part of engineering classes, I had to take shop classes and loved it!
And, since my second major was Computer-Aided Design and Manufacturing,
the engineers sent me with Larry to the CNC shop to cut parts - for 16 hours!!!
My feet hurt so bad - and I’d do it again tomorrow!
And I know why I had to take ‘Sheet Metal - 101’, ‘Plastic Molding & Injection - 103’
and all those other hands-on classes. Mainly, so the engineer has practical
understanding of the processes. You don’t ask the shop to build what they
aren’t equipped to do.
I guess my point was that if you can’t get a shop to allow you to cut parts,
go after a shop that will do the cutting for you. Ask if a student has a
parent with a decent woodworking shop. You may be able to
borrow enough equipment to do the less complex stuff that way.

5

Posted by michael bastoni, Coach on team #23, PNTA, from Plymouth North High School and Boston Edison Co.

Posted on 5/17/99 8:19 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Location, location, location… posted by MaryEllen on 5/16/99 1:47 PM MST:

Students use the tools,

And remember, from the time you pick up the calipers through
the time you draw your idea and either build it or mock it up,
you are intimately engaged in the scientific method…so whenever
you can, however you can…gain access to the tools…and learn to
use them to make your ideas real…

My 12 year old son came into the shop this year and machined a set
of bushing for our robot…it is a feeling of self confidence and
accomplishment that he will build on…Like all the students on our
team and other teams throughout the country who participate in
in varying degrees in the fabrication of their machines…It only
makes a great experience better.

And remember that the Papalardo Mechanical Engineering Lab at MIT is
full of old Bridgeports and War surplus lathes that are magnificently creative
tools in the hands of young bright kids not much older than most of
the FIRST students…

So go learn to use the tools, be creative…but above all else, learn
how to use them safely…

Mr.b

6

Posted by Rick Gibbs, Engineer on team #145, T-Rx, from Norwich High School, Sherburne-Earlville High School and Procter & Gamble Pharmaceuticals.

Posted on 5/21/99 7:47 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Location, location, location… posted by MaryEllen on 5/16/99 1:06 PM MST:

: If you limit the students’ design options to the machining skills of the
: students, you’re putting an unneccessary limit on creativity.

I disagree. Limitations necessitate creativity and elegant engineering.
Our team had very limited resources this year - nearly all machining and
welding was performed by students, no CNC mills or lathes were available,
most of the equipment was 20+ years old, limited knowledge or use of CAD,
etc. Yet we had a great robot and a great year - 7th at Philly, 3rd at
Nationals.

Limits on creativity are only self-imposed.

: Don’t confuse
: engineering with shop class - you’ll lose some of the girls joining your
: team who may have fantastic ideas but little mechanical experience.

Girls make up ~1/3 of our team and they are often more eager to jump into
the shop than the guys. And they’re doing everything: engineering,
machining, and welding!

What are the gender roles on other teams?

7

Posted by colleen, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 5/16/99 7:44 PM MST

In Reply to: Location, location, location… posted by Daniel on 5/16/99 12:11 PM MST:

Hey Dan,
We do zero work in the school’s shop and do all the work at Nypro’s machine shop. Kids have to go through a tool’s training prior to the building process and a program (kinda thing) on safety (that’s Nypro’s pride, the number of safe days and how few injuries they have)… then kids are allowed to use the machines, they just inform one of the adults in the shop that they are using it so someone is around… it is a liability, but provided you are well-informed and safe about it, nothing bad should happen…

and of course, there are some machines like lathes, table saws, etc… the really dangerous stuff, that are only to be worked by an adult… but kids stuff can do a lot of the work…

8

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/16/99 9:01 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Location, location, location… posted by colleen on 5/16/99 7:44 PM MST:

The lathe is my favorite tool! Damned if I don’t make them let me use it. =)

‘Them’ being whomever I drag into this thing…

That’s one thing they can’t take away from me.

-DL

9

Posted by MaryEllen, Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 5/16/99 9:25 PM MST

In Reply to: It’s MY lathe! posted by Daniel on 5/16/99 9:01 PM MST:

If you get the chance, try out a CNC lathe! You get a whole new appreciation
of negative numbers!

10

Posted by Kate Leach, Student on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode / RS Machines.

Posted on 5/17/99 2:33 PM MST

In Reply to: It’s MY lathe! posted by Daniel on 5/16/99 9:01 PM MST:

Dude, I’ll join you on that lathe stuff… I got to use the spiffy CNC lathes at one of the machine shops that sponsors us… They’re awesome!! And then I got back to the school and took the metal tech class and got stuck with the primitive lathes that don’t have computers hooked up to them… There was one time that I was complaining about the non-high-tech machines there and got A’s for my projects instead of A-'s… So, I love power tools… Especially if they’re hooked up to computers… :smiley:

-KATe-

11

Posted by Fran , Other on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode/R.S. Machines.

Posted on 5/18/99 7:42 AM MST

In Reply to: Location, location, location… posted by Daniel on 5/16/99 12:11 PM MST:

:
Don’t forget the obvious place to search for machine shops is in the phone book. We were desparate and found 3 listed in our town, 2 were out of business and the third was a dream come true. He had no problem with the team coming in after hours(4:30pm) and working til 9pm or later and all weekend. He machined stuff and allowed the kids as well. His kids were in college and he wished this had been around for them. I heard he misses the daily contact with the team after the robot was shipped but we still visit him. So when times look tuff you never know where you will find a silver lining…just try everywhere.

Well, I’ve been working some more on the Cal Robotics project. Here’s what I found out:

: The Cal student shop is too busy with other projects. I seriously doubt it would be adequate for our intents.

: So here’s my plan…

: I have been trying to find a sponsor company with a machine shop and some extra space, as it is my understanding that many teams operate out of a sponsor’s shop. Is this true, or are there too many liabilities involved? If true, do the students actually get to do the machining? This is one thing I feel very strongly about. I need to have the students build the thing, not the engineers.

: Let me know! Any info would help…

:
: Thanks in advance,
: -Daniel