Looking for 2009 Troy District Rankings (or scouting data)

Other The Blue Alliance
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Hey y’all -

I cannot find rankings for the 2009 Troy District. I’m asking for help finding these rankings, or finding data so I can calculate these rankings. I have found some un-verified rankings, but would like assistance verifying them and finding additional information. If you have spreadsheets, scouting data, old downloaded PDFs, textual communication about rankings, grainy iPhone 3G photos of standings from the event, etc. from that year, please send them my way!

What I’ve Found

There are two places I’ve been able to find rankings for this 2009 event -
Ed Law’s scouting database and FIRST in Michigan’s website. However, these rankings disagree with each other, and neither has enough information for me to determine which one is correct, or have all the values I need. They start to disagree in the 14 ranking point bucket, in a few more buckets.

Between the rankings posted on FiM’s site and Ed - I’m not entirely sure which one I’m inclined to trust more.

The Problem

Ranking in 2009 (see Section 9, specifically 9.3.10) depended on 3 scores - qualifying score (QS), ranking score (RS), and highest match score (MS). Ranking score is the same as modern FRC ranking points - 2 points for a win, 1 for a tie, 0 for a loss. Highest match score uses the final reported match score and is easy to calculate given the match results.

Calculating the Qualifying Score is “lossy” - it cannot be derived from the final match score without more information. The winning alliance receives ranking points equal to the un-
penalized score of the losing alliance. This un-penelized score or the number of penalties assigned is not reported in the match scores. This is why I cannot just calculate the rankings given the match scores we already have.

Raw scouting data from this event would allow me to get a rough idea of which rankings (FiM or Ed) are more accurate by being able to calculate roughly the un-penalized score. Any scouting data is going to be a little off - 2009 especially so, since it was hard to count the number of cells going in trailers. But something is better than nothing.

What I’ve Tried So Far

FIRST does not have the rankings for 2009oc despite having rankings for most other 2009 events. Poking around the old lasso pages did not seem helpful since most of those links are dead, and I believe all the rankings were on the HTML pages.

There’s no Wayback Machine capture for the 2009oc rankings.

Ed Law’s scouting database is missing this 2009oc event rankings due to the rankings getting pulled and his spreadsheet getting overwritten.

FRC Tracker went offline a few years ago - I’m not even sure if that dataset is still around or available, or would be missing this data just like everyone else.

FIRST in Michigan has a list of the rankings from the event, but I cannot verify the order of these rankings since they don’t give details on the sort orders.

The Fantasy FIRST spreadsheets on Chief from that year do not show their work - they just have final numbers.

1114’s CMP Scouting Database from 2009 does calculations based on match scores and doesn’t have the breakdowns I’m looking for (or the individual data, as far as I can tell).

I’ve done searching around Chief for posts that might mirror the rankings, or CD-Media uploads of scouting spreadsheets that might have these rankings without success.

Match videos from this era end right when the match ends and don’t show match results, so I’m doubtful these would help me at all. However, even sleuthing for match videos in places like SOAP’s video archive has come up short.

I’ve also scoured my own emails, Google Talk, Google Drive, Dropbox, external hard drive backups from that year (I was at that event) and haven’t found anything to point me in the right direction.

Conclusion

I know it’s a bit of a foolish endeavor attempting to track down data from a robotics event that happened 16 years ago. The program was smaller in 2009, and there are probably only a handful of folks still around from that era.

Any help here is appreciated!

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I was there, I scouted, and I was involved in creating a pick list. However, 67 had completely non-digital scouting at the time and I really doubt anyone has been saving our scouting sheets from that event for this long.

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You underestimate me, my good sir. And you just nerd sniped me. Therefore, there is now heck to pay :wink: .

So, I don’t have the original source. That was 2-3 laptops ago. BUT… given the scoring (SLFF 2009 thread), the awards list (TBA), the by team scores (from the 2009 spreadsheet)… I think I can solve this problem. It won’t be tonight, I don’t think. But I’ll have something cooking pretty quickly.

Although… TBA DOES have the DISTRICT POINTS for the event. Just sayin’.

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Bless you Eric - my wall is full of red string :pray:

I considered if I could reverse rankings from district points, and I didn’t think so. But I might be under-thinking it.

Using the FF scores to reverse team rankings is an interesting idea I hadn’t considered!

Feel free to DM me as well to collaborate on this. I’m at the point where if I could verify which of the two possible rankings (Ed’s or FiM’s) seem more likely to be accurate - that would be good enough for me!

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Given that they’re including this handy little “Qual Points” column…

I’m blasting through the whole “remove extraneous data”–I’m the idiot that originally compiled it, but I’ll only be able to estimate Top 16 based on ranking.

So, what I’m doing: I have the FF scores for each team that was picked. (32 teams). I know the awards scores–those get subtracted out. I know the finishing scores–those get subtracted out. I can use TBA to W-L-T each team–that gives their net points from that, and THAT gets subtracted out. Hey presto, I’ve got the ranking score for top 16, which will give me a range within that. I’m through the first couple so far.

On top of this, we know that backups were pulled, and in what order. So we know that X, Y, Z were in that specific order in the rankings, but not exactly where.

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The bottom of the rankings are easier to guesstimate up to a point. Teams with less match wins means more of their Qualifying Score is more heavily influenced by the final match scores - which we have.

The ranking point buckets on both ends of the bell curve are also smaller - so on the bottom-end there’s less teams that need tie-breaking with the QS. This is true for the top end as well - but we have some information like alliance selection results to kind of help figure out the top end of the curve.

This would be super helpful - except the middle is where the two rankings start to disagree, and both of the approach I thought of don’t give me much signal about the middle.

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I was there and have some photos from the event, but none of them show anything about ranks. And I don’t seem to have any documents really from 2009.

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Right, mates, here’s the bad news. FF data is only so granular, and at the time didn’t bother going outside the “make it in on your own” slots. So, I can give a pretty good idea of who was where, at the top end, but it’s going to be some speculation. On top of which… well, sometimes “stuff” happens.

What I CAN say is that there’s a couple of noisy/interesting spots between FF and TBA that can help us. FF shows 1216 as roughly #16–TBA says no way, they’re more like 27th. 3119 was the first and only backup called, with 9 “below 16” teams picked before them–this places them no lower than 25th. TBA? 12th.

DATA DUMP: In the tags. I’m not that evil, guys. Having the FF points broken out by team–you had to allow editing on the sheet to get that formula–helped out quite a bit.

Top 16, by FF point groupings.
1 217
2-3 67
2-3 302
4-8 94
4-8 326
4-8 469
4-8 1701
4-8 910
9-12 68
9-12 308
9-12 573
9-12 1188
12-16 247
12-16 815
12-16 1250
12-16 1216
Full Rank and Alliance Guessing
Rank Team Alliance ACTUAL Rank
1 217 1 1
2-3 67 1 2
2-3 302 2 3
4-8 94 3 4
4-8 326 5 6
4-8 469 4 5
4-8 1701 7 7
4-8 910 3 8
9-12 68 2
9-12 308 3
9-12 573 8
9-12 1188 5
12-16 247 7
12-16 815 6
12-16 1250 5
12-16 1216
>16 47 4
>16 226 6
>16 397 4
>16 453
>16 1023
>16 1213 7
>16 1596 2
>16 1602
>16 2137
>16 2337
>16 2591
>16 2620 8
>16 2676
>16 3095 1
>16 3097
>16 3119 1 BACKUP M5, <25 Rank
>16 2851
>16 2960 6
>16 2832 8
>16 857
>16 3114
>16 3060
>16 2960
>16 2851
>16 2832
>16 2673
>16 1684
Full Details
Team FF Score Awards Playoff W-L-T W-L-T points Rank Points Rank Team Alliance ACTUAL Rank
217 122 47 30 17-2 30 15 1 217 1 1
67 88 20 30 16-3 26 12 2-3 67 1 2
302 48 20 13-5 16 12 2-3 302 2 3
94 30 4 10 11-6 10 6 4-8 94 3 4
326 44 15 10 11-5-1 13 6 4-8 326 5 6
469 32 15 4 8-5 7 6 4-8 469 4 5
1701 14 4 8-6 4 6 4-8 1701 7 7
910 28 15 10 8-9 -2 5 4-8 910 3 8
68 37 2 20 12-6 12 3 9-12 68 2
308 20 2 10 9-7-1 5 3 9-12 308 3
573 11 4 8-6 4 3 9-12 573 8
1188 19 10 10-7 6 3 9-12 1188 5
247 6 4 7-7 0 2 12-16 247 7
815 44 36 4 8-7 2 2 12-16 815 6
1250 20 2 10 10-7 6 2 12-16 1250 5
1216 3 4-6-2 -2 5 12-16 1216
47 5 5 4 6-8 -4 0 >16 47 4
226 7 5 4 7-8 -2 0 >16 226 6
397 0 4 6-8 -4 0 >16 397 4
453 -12 3-9 -12 0 >16 453
1023 3 15 3-9 -12 0 >16 1023
1213 -4 4 5-9 -8 0 >16 1213 7
1596 24 20 10-8 4 0 >16 1596 2
1602 -12 3-9 -12 0 >16 1602
2137 0 6-6 0 >16 2137
2337 -8 4-8 -8 0 >16 2337
2591 -8 4-8 -8 0 >16 2591
2620 -8 4 4-10 -12 0 >16 2620 8
2676 -13 2-9-1 -13 0 >16 2676
3095 32 30 7-6 2 0 >16 3095 1
3097 -8 4-8 -8 0 >16 3097
3119 54 15 30 12-6 12 -3 >16 3119 1 BACKUP M5, <25 Rank
2851 22 -22 >16 2851
2960 5 4 1-2 -9 >16 2960 6
2832 4 -2 -4 >16 2832 8
857 0 >16 857
3114 >16 3114
3060 >16 3060
2960 >16 2960
2851 >16 2851
2832 >16 2832
2673 >16 2673
1684 >16 1684
TBA, By QUAL Points
Team Qual Points
217 22
67 20
302 18
94 18
326 17
469 17
68 16
1701 16
573 16
2960 16
308 15
3119 14
1250 14
1188 14
247 14
815 14
3114 13
2832 13
1596 12
910 12
3095 12
226 12
47 12
2851 12
397 12
2137 12
1216 10
1213 10
2620 8
2591 8
3097 8
2337 8
857 7
1023 6
453 6
3060 6
1602 6
1684 5
2676 5
2673 4

If it weren’t so late, I’d deduce alliance pick order–469 and 326 are in the wrong order in above by both TBA and the FF sort, based on that–but it’s pretty late on my end.

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I considered if I could reverse rankings from district points, and I didn’t think so. But I might be under-thinking it.

I believe you are right and this would not work. District points back then were 2 points for a quals win, and 1 point for a quals tie. It only switched to the current system based on rankings in 2015, when wins/losses/ties didn’t matter anymore.

In any case, TBA is calculating the district points on its own (it should be using the rules from 2009). It doesn’t have an extra source of data.

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Here’s what I could pull from my notes. Does this line up with any of your sources?

Team Nickname Reg Result Selection Record Seed
217 ThunderChickens OC Regional Winner Alliance Captain 1 11-1-0 1
67 The HOT Team OC Regional Winner 1st pick 10-2-0 2
302 The Dragons OC Finalist Alliance Captain 2 9-3-0 3
94 The Technojays OC Semi Finalist Alliance Captain 3 9-3-0 4
469 Las Guerrillas OC Quarter Finalist Alliance Captain 4 8-3-1 5
326 Xtreme Eagles OC Semi Finalist Alliance Captain 5 8-3-1 6
2960 OC Quarter Finalist Alliance Captain 6 8-4-0 7
1701 RoboCubs OC Quarter Finalist Alliance Captain 7 8-4-0 8
68 T3 OC Finalist 2nd pick 8-4-0 9
573 Mech Warriors OC Quarter Finalist Alliance Captain 8 8-4-0 10
308 The Monsters OC Semi Finalist 14th pick 7-4-1 11
1250 Gator-Bots OC Semi Finalist 5th pick 7-5-0 12
1188 OC Semi Finalist 12th pick 7-5-0 13
3119 OC Regional Winner Replacement Bot 1 7-5-0 14
247 Da Bears OC Quarter Finalist 7th pick 7-5-0 15
815 Advanced Power OC Quarter Finalist 6th pick 7-5-0 16
2832 OC Quarter Finalist 9th pick 6-5-1 17
3114 OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 6-5-1 18
2851 OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 6-4-2 19
910 The Foley Freeze OC Semi Finalist 3rd pick 6-6-0 20
3095 OC Regional Winner 16th pick 6-6-0 21
226 Hammerheads OC Quarter Finalist 11th pick 6-6-0 22
1596 Instigators OC Finalist 15th pick 6-6-0 23
47 Chief Delphi OC Quarter Finalist 4th pick 6-6-0 24
397 Knight Riders OC Quarter Finalist 13th pick 6-6-0 25
2137 Robocats OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 6-6-0 26
1216 Knights OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 5-5-2 27
1213 OC Quarter Finalist 10th pick 5-7-0 28
2591 SuperNova OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 4-8-0 29
2337 EngiNERDs OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 4-8-0 30
2620 Titans OC Quarter Finalist 8th pick 4-8-0 31
3097 OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 4-8-0 32
857 Superior Roboworks OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 3-8-1 33
453 G.E.A.R.S. OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 3-9-0 34
1023 Bedford Express OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 3-9-0 35
1602 CougarBots OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 3-9-0 36
3060 OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 3-9-0 37
2676 Ecorse OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 2-9-1 38
1684 East Alchemists OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 2-9-1 39
2673 Tenacious Technicians OC Did not make eliminations Was not selected 2-10-0 40
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It’s lining up with mine so far, except that 2960 was nowhere near AC–no FF points for seed means they weren’t top-16. 1701 picked them.

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Thanks Karthik! This seems to match up with the FiM rankings. I’m starting to suspect these FiM rankings are accurate

I still want to do this analysis at some point. On the lower-end, the FiM vs Ed start to disagree on the lower end at the 6 QS bucket (ranks 33-37). I suppose 3 wins-with-fouls is still quite a bit of variance, but it might show something here.

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I don’t think this could be correct. We do have match results, and 2960 and 1701 were on different alliances (6 and 7 respectively). Also fairly confident 2960 was that captain, based on the QS buckets their alliance partners land in.

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I think I know what happened.

So, for 2009, if you have 0 FF rank points, you’re outside top 16. If you’re outside top 16, you can’t be a captain. No exceptions, end of discussion… normally. 2960 has 0 FF rank points.

However. FF scoring, to save effort (mine), only scores picked teams in the league. 2960 wasn’t picked in FF. So they wouldn’t have gotten any points at all, let alone rank points. That means that when I was reconstructing, they were all the way at the bottom, and got ignored.

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I assume this data is to fix TBA info?
Man I love this forum.

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Out of curiosity, might I ask why you need this information?

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Getting missing data into TBA, essentially.

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Hey y’all!

Lemme be clear - this mostly started out of curiosity. It was surprising to me that when looking through data for a team - THIS event that I have a personal connection to was missing. So I wanted to see if I could find this information.

I can’t promise this will get added to TBA since we’re lacking complete data, and we can be 100% certain any of these rankings are correct (with some rock solid evidence I haven’t seen yet - like a photo of the standings from the event or something).

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Sorry Zach, but I don’t keep my paperwork for 14 years. 14 days, maybe.
(Once @Ed_Law did contact me to clarify something about FIM rankings, and I was able to give him the answer. But that was only a few days after an event.)

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