I thank the original poster for engaging in this line of discussion, because the opportunity to discuss issues like this one is a valuable way to connect technology to broader issues of policy and politics.
Nevertheless, prior to reading the original post, I didn’t realize that there could be such a simple and elegant way to ensure the end of my participation in the program.
Lemme guess, you’re one of those guys that thinks we should only buy American cars too?
But I’ll humor you, tell me how STEM jobs (which are what we are trying to encourage students to go into) are impacted by the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs?
I’d be willing to entertain the argument that software jobs are at risk. But I’ll also tell you (from first hand experience) that there are certain jobs that cannot be outsourced for a variety of reasons. Furthermore, recent articles I’ve seen have alluded to software jobs coming back from India for a variety of reasons.
So, in short, I firmly believe that outsourcing is a specter that people like to point to to instill fear in us and get us to buy American. If I can get the same job done drastically cheaper overseas good for me.
There was a point someone made in this thread about economic policy that applies to this statement. It’s below.
With every manufacturing facility come the STEM jobs of the upkeep and oversight of that facility. Modern manufacturing typically requires technicians and process engineers.
Why? Ignoring the obvious international teams argument, why does a product need to be manufactured in USA?
A manufacturing job in China[or insert other nationality] is one of the first occupations for the masses to earn a living outside of subsistence farming. Additionally, it doesn’t make as much sense to manufacture parts for big US companies in the US. It would not be possible for Apple to grow to its current size with US manufacturing. Are you saying that you would rather they built a small brand with maybe 10,000 US manufacturing jobs at the cost of building a large brand with 200,000 US engineering, management, retail, and transportation jobs? In addition to the international manufacturing jobs that give people globally an option that isn’t laboring a field for food?
Millions of people in the US are employed by foreign companies. This is a global world. Graduates of FIRST will own or work for companies that purchase from and sell to most countries in this world. If anything, there needs to be a bigger focus on where parts are sourced internationally because it will give them a clearer understanding of where the advantages and disadvantages of outsourcing parts lie.
I don’t know if current trends in FRC are helping with that. With the growth of FRC-specific component/assembly suppliers and the advent of Ri3D builds, FRC is becoming more about shopping around for existing stuff and less about creating it yourself. That’s not all bad, but not all good either. Some outdated rules (IMHO) on “fabricated” vs. “COTS” items encourage this.
Perhaps someday we will have the “IF IT LOOKS LIKE WORK FARM IT OUT AWARD sponsored by Manpower Associates”, or (for the robot with the most “Made in China” content) the “CHAIRMAN MAO’S AWARD”.
I do not support a “Made in America” rule for FRC, but I do support policies that encourage teams to design and build more of their own stuff. I think that will inspire the development of talented and experienced problem solvers who will improve life for Americans and everybody else.
+1. I don’t design any manufactured parts at my day job, but the lessons I learned designing and then having to build a real thing as an FRC students were invaluable.
I love it when the CAD kids make an awful drawing, and then have to go manufacture the part. It is a much more effective lesson than someone else telling them to redo it.
“The country’s success since that perilous time [1942] boggles the mind. On an inflation adjusted basis, GDP per capita more than quadrupled between 1941 and 2012. Throughout that period, every tomorrow has been uncertain. America’s destiny however, has always been clear: ever-increasing abundance.” -Warren Buffet, 2012 Letter to Shareholders
I will continue to purchase the best stuff available from Mr. Market.
Sigh… Ok, this will be watered down and not technically correct, but it’ll get the point across. Imagine an economy where only two countries exist, the US and China, and each is operating under autarky (no trade/outsourcing at all.) Now someone in the US decides to have Good A made in China because it was cheaper. The Chinese worker produces Good A at instead of producing Good B. However, China still demands that Good B is produced. China doesn’t have any option other than to have Good B produced in the US, so the person fired from producing Good A is now hired to produce Good B. Thus there is no change in the number of people employed.
Obviously we’ve made a lot of assumptions (perfect competition, no transport costs, homogenous workers, only two countries, etc.) But, it turns out that you can relax many of these assumptions and the model still works.
I got a bit carried away, see edited version.
Am I missing something, my robot is made in America, isn’t it?
I challenge you to give me an example of a FIRST component or part that is entirely made in the USA…
Andymark, VEX and nearly all other suppliers although they may say their product is made in the USA, the bearings, fasteners, gears, shafts-- component parts etc nearly always come from offshore. It is the only way for them to offer products that we can or are willing to pay for.
The reality of the world today is that we live in a global economy.
For those of you “buy domestic” types, you may need to rethink your choice of automobile. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/a-graphic-representation-of-whats-really-made-in-america-feature
its enogh that as a team from israel we need to wait for about a week to get staff we buy from andymark, i dont think its fair if basic equipment we want to use will arrive to us a week after we actually thought of using it.
We actually outsourced ours to Canada since they are CLEARLY superior to us at hockey. 
Thank you for this. It might be helpful for some in this thread to read up on the theory of comparative advantage. In short, it’s quite possible for everyone to benefit when some work is outsourced.
That’s the least controversial post I’ve seen in this thread…
Welcome to 2014, where parts from China are both cheaper and better made.
From talking to various suppliers, it seems like the US is a really poor choice for FRC manufacturing (unless you need super fast turnarounds, and maybe not even then). Chinese manufactures are much cheaper, produce a better product, and seem to want your business a whole lot more than US based manufacturers. Basically, in America, you pay out the nose for each setup, and in China, you’re essentially only paying for material, because labor costs are so low. There’s a reason a lot of high tech manufacturing still has a significant foothold in the US (such as aerospace and medical manufacturing, where profits are large because of proprietary designs), while large scale, lower profit margin manufacturing (iPhones, etc) is better done in China.
There also seems to be agreement in the business community that this disparity in manufacturing is because of the large number of taxes and regulations in the US. I’ll leave whether or not this is a good thing to the amateur politicians here.
We bought a metal component from McMaster, I was pleasantly surprised how close to home it originated! You may have to zoom in to see it.
I’m sure Andy can chime in here, but I believe he has specifically said that all his fabricated parts are done in the greater Indiana area. That includes gear hobbing, machining, extrusion, etc.
They might be done from Chinese material, but I think you’d be surprised how much metal that is sold in the US is actually from here.
Additionally most things from McMaster are US manufactured (lots of bearings are probably a notable exception).
There is some amount of work coming back to the US because the gap in wages is starting to close a little bit, combined with the fact that lead times can be longer, customs are an issue, product can be lost to damage during shipping (salt water, etc), it can be difficult to communicate with vendors and make changes, etc.
It’s kind of disingenuous to say that China makes better stuff than America. China is obviously good at certain things and not so good at others. I fail to see any instance in which China could produce something that could not be made to the same or better quality standards as in the US. You will pay more for it, but the US (on the whole) is better at quality control and process development.
I try to purchase North American manufactured products whenever possible, assuming they are of equal or better quality and cost competitive.
Excluding products like VEXPro which are of very high quality, the average Chinese product used in FRC (bearings, cutting tools, hand tools, machinery, etc) are somewhere between mediocre and garbage.
Amen to this.
FRC teams want things fast, cheap, and typically of high quality. We usually settle with a mix of the three but I don’t care who it comes from; I want it ASAP and to last a season.
Pretty sure when a some chinese factory can produce parts for cheaper then a American factory, then the American factory is going out of business. First the chinese factories don’t have to abide by environmental rules that American factories would otherwise have to follow. Then you have the obvious of cheap labor. That’s free market/capitalistism for you.
I personally think this “problem” won’t last much longer. There have been many countries that have been the “low cost labor” for industry throughout History. USA was one of those not too long ago when you look at time in terms of civilization.
Since the 1900s shipping has allowed for the “low cost labor” to be more global, but in general, the labor supports higher wages which increases cost of living which increase wages which increases prices which… until a new “low cost labor” source becomes advantageous.
China is just the current source, but there have been several others before it. The neat thing is we are quickly running out of potential “low cost” labor markets as countries keep developing.
I am very excited for the day when Africa really gets into the game. We are likely “10 years out”* on this.
*10 years out is the threshold for predictors to make predictions that could be 7-100 years out. If you predict 1-5 years out, someone will remember to kid you about it. 10 years, and you either look like a genious if you are right, or everyone forgets if you are wrong…
