Minnesota, we have a Problem

[Ryan_Swanson]

Minnesota, we have a problem. We consistently have among the worst representation at the world championship. Here are a couple of examples from previous years based on frc.divisions.co/

The Problem, By the Numbers

In 2017 we sent ~16 fewer teams than expected, and ~10 fewer teams in 2019. Let’s go through the numbers from 2022 to see how we’re doing…

Minnesota represents around 6.16% of all FRC teams as shown in the image below. We were at around 220 teams prior to the pandemic, but this reflects the current state of things.

The table below compares qualification number expectations in a Regional versus a District system, as well as comparing our actual performance to projected expectations. The expected Regional slot number was determined based on the number of Minnesota teams at an event as a percentage of total teams at the event, multipled by the number of qualifying spots at the event.

Here’s the breakdown of how Minnesota teams qualified. It’s interesting that we’re only sending 6 event winners, which intuitively would have a better chance of competing at the highest levels of play than other qualification methods. We’ve historically only ever had 5 instances of a Minnesota team on Einstein (2052 X2, 2512, 2526, 4607).

To me the most disheartening statistics are shown in the table below. The table shows the percentage of teams from inside Minnesota and outside the state that qualify for Champs as a function of the number of MN or Non-MN teams at the event. I focused on 2022 events with a large number of MN teams. An insane thing to note is that over 25% of out-of-state teams that attend Minnesota majority events qualify for Champs!!! 25%!!! For anybody reading this from outside MN, take note I guess.

The Question

So what does this all mean? I view this as a problem. Maybe not everybody does… but the Championship experience is absolutely transformational for robotics programs, and I view it as a shame that so few Minnesota teams get to experience that.

So what’s the solution? The quick and easy answer is to just say: “districts”, but that doesn’t really achieve anything. There’s obviously a lot that goes into establishing districts in a region. There are dozens (hundreds?) of threads discussing the topic and this doesn’t need to be another.

Instead, I’d like to focus specifically on grassroots efforts to promote districts in a region. What kinds of things work well? What kinds of things aren’t effective? How do you make teams buy in to the idea that the district system will benefit them? Are there any existing resources out there that one could leverage to aid in selling the district system directly to teams.

I’ve heard stories of people getting thrown out of events for handing out fliers to promote the district system. I fully intend to do this in future years… but are there any event rules that I might not be aware of that prohibit this?

The overall theory here is that going directly to teams, to get them to buy into the idea that districts will improve their experience, will help assuage the fundamental challenges associated with transitioning to districts. It is also the only avenue I have available to me at this time.

[hutchMN]

FYI - 2526 made Einstein in 2015

[Ryan_Swanson]

Totally forgot that! Edited the original post to include them.

[bovlb]

@Ryan_Swanson

I’ve heard stories of people getting thrown out of events for handing out fliers to promote the district system. I fully intend to do this in future years… but are there any event rules that I might not be aware of that prohibit this?

Event rules are here. I don’t see anything that obviously prohibits handing out flyers, but E111 (Don’t sell stuff) and E114 (Flags and banners: hang with care) come closest. And, of course, there’s the catch-all E102 (Be nice).

You might want to start by being open with some Key Volunteers about what you’re doing so that they know what’s going on. Putting a volunteer on the spot to make a snap decision about something that might appear dodgy may not produce the best results.

Can you point us at an example of such a flier?

[asid61]

So wait, you’re saying that if I fly to MN for regionals, I have a 25% chance of qualifying? Sign me up

[quarky]

California teams be like

[mrnoble]

Now I know where the good poaching’s at I guess

[guineawheek]

Taking the grassroots approach to its natural conclusion, if one were to get a large number of teams in support,

…maybe start holding offseasons at some of the supporting schools,
…and recruit would-be volunteers who may have felt marginalized by the current system (of which there are many),
…critically get some corporate sponsors for these offseasons to build a war chest,
…and finally, announce your organizational intentions to become a Minnesota district PDP, perhaps you could solve the problem once and for all.

(This last step is probably the hardest. I have no idea how you could “replace” a standing PDP.)

It’s rather tragic that this is probably the most viable approach to the matter, and that you’d end up working against the system rather than with it, given the current PDP’s disinterest in serving its teams. (Just read this thread.) Barring direct HQ action themselves, I’m not sure what else there is to do on the matter, anyway.

[gurellia53]

@mrnoble

Now I know where the good poaching’s at I guess

Ope. I guess the cat’s out of the bag.

[john3928]

It’s not clear to me that you are looking at the right statistics. For example, you show that 50% of Non-Minn teams at North Star qualified for Champs. Underneath that 50% figure is that there were only 2 non-Minn teams at North Star (1 Iowa, 1 Wisc). I assume you are counting us as the 1 who champs qualified there. Actually we were already qualified and the two wildcards we generated went to Minn teams.

FWIW at the Iowa Regional the 4 slots went to teams from {Arkansas, Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri}

[samviesselman]

@guineawheek

…and finally, announce your organizational intentions to become a Minnesota district PDP, perhaps you could solve the problem once and for all.

(This last step is probably the hardest. I have no idea how you could “replace” a standing PDP.)

Complete non-starter. The people who organize and run the MN regionals along with FUM are too dedicated, talented, intelligent, organized, etc. to be excluded from any viable process. Many of our schools wouldn’t have teams without those people.

@Ryan_Swanson

The overall theory here is that going directly to teams, to get them to buy into the idea that districts will improve their experience, will help assuage the fundamental challenges associated with transitioning to districts.

Good luck to you on this! I’ve been saying for awhile now that if MN is ever going to get districts, then we need to establish a consensus that we want to move to districts. All the discussion around “what about volunteers?” and “what about a non-profit to run it” is pointless if districts aren’t the stated goal.

I thought flyers like in this thread are really helpful for teams who know nothing about the district model. I would consider creating an updated version of that and adding a QR code that links to a form to collect contact information for those interested. I’d happily be the first to fill it out!

[guineawheek]

@samviesselman

The people who organize and run the MN regionals along with FUM are too dedicated, talented, intelligent, organized, etc. to be excluded from any viable process.

None of these really matter long-term if they uphold a culture that continues to drive alumni to swear never to volunteer in Minnesota, which is a sentiment I sadly keep hearing from them. You can be the most hyper-skilled person in the world, but if your organization is impossible to work with, you won’t get anywhere.

[KingOfDemise]

I’m really hoping we are able to go to champs finally in the next couple of years, that experience is super important to the program. I wanted to punch that ticket this year so our seniors would get to go, but we didn’t quite get far enough.

I feel like our huge regionals aren’t helping the state’s representation at all. When all regionals have the same number of champs qualifications, adding an extra 30 teams doesn’t make it any better for the 20+ teams at each event that only register for one event per year. More smaller events would qualify more teams, but no, super regionals are “cool”. If we could afford to travel out of state, we would probably go to a smaller event. More play time, less teams competing for the same awards and champs qualifications, sounds like a win-win for me.

[Jon_Stratis]

@guineawheek

uphold a culture that continues to drive alumni to swear never to volunteer in Minnesota,

What’s really odd about this statement, from my perspective… at least half the robot inspectors across all the MN events this season were alumni. We have FTA’s, FTAA’s, refs, a head ref, an LRI, queuers, CSA’s, a VC, judges, a judge advisor… all FIRST alumni, and many of them long-time volunteers with us. So, what’s the difference between them and these alumni you know that don’t want to volunteer with us?

[Akash_Rastogi]

Honestly it sounds like (from your various threads about MN) there is just too much divisive rhetoric in your state to make anything work. Sounds like folks on both “sides” of the program in FRC keep perpetuating some us vs them mentality. Until you all come to the table and drop egos for the benefit of the kids, nothing but unproductive arguments will come of any discussion.

[Jon_Stratis]

Ryan, a quick question for you. When you were on the board for FUM, what did you do, specifically, to move the organization in the direction of districts? Was there any discussion then, any at all, about becoming a PDP? Did you run any surveys to see what the majority of teams in the state want? Did you recruit a vast army of volunteers, or scout dozens of potential venues for events?

[snoman]

Yeah Minnesota has always been underrepresented at championships. Minnesota has been very good at getting teams started. Collectively we have not been very good at getting teams to thrive. There are a lot of teams around the state that have not seen a lot of growth from a competitive standpoint within their team. Or they’ve had wild swings Wear some high level students or a new mentor joined temporarily.

What I have believed I have seen work up here in the north country is the support given by a very active hub or conference if you will. We are sending five teams to championships out of our 29 team conference. Now would some of those teams have made it without being affiliated with us of course. But I know the majority of them definitely benefited from the local support.

PS I kind of like districts too…

[Michael_Corsetto]

@KingOfDemise

I feel like our huge regionals aren’t helping the state’s representation at all. When all regionals have the same number of champs qualifications, adding an extra 30 teams doesn’t make it any better for the 20+ teams at each event that only register for one event per year.

Bingo.

We don’t need districts, but we need to cut it out with these multiple super regionals every year. Sacramento having 40 teams for the first time in many years was a breath of fresh air, and I hope CA continues to focus on more smaller events vs the 66 team events of yesteryear.

Having 59 teams at SVR was a decidedly less quality competition than our first two 36-40 team events. Fewer qual matches, lower ratio of awards to teams, etc all negatively impact the program. I’d love to see FIRST update their guidance to RDs to find smaller venues and scale down the size of their events.

-Mike

[JeffB]

@Ryan_Swanson

The table below compares qualification number expectations in a Regional versus a District system, as well as comparing our actual performance to projected expectations.

You’re showing 189 Minnesota teams translating into 28 spots with a district system. It’s a nitpick but FiT has 165 teams with 23 slots. If we adjust based on that, we’re looking at ~26 spots for MN.

@Ryan_Swanson

An insane thing to note is that over 25% of out-of-state teams that attend Minnesota majority events qualify for Champs!!!

I didn’t look at each of the events. I’d wager teams traveling out of state for a regional event tend to be more established teams and thus more likely to qualify for Champs. As an example, 118 left Texas to attend a regional event. They came home with a banner. 179 left Florida and came home with a banner, etc. I’m not sure what percentage I’d expect for out of state. But, it would be disproportionate to the number of teams attending from out of state.

@Ryan_Swanson

I’ve heard stories of people getting thrown out of events for handing out fliers to promote the district system. I fully intend to do this in future years… but are there any event rules that I might not be aware of that prohibit this?

When Texas was starting to move towards districts, there were a couple of things that started happening. First, there were more regional events. There weren’t as many as there were for district events but it was a noted increase. It was partly to build up volunteers and partly to get teams excited about new venues and closer locations (I’m assuming. I wasn’t a part of said plan). There were also sessions given at the regionals by those versed in districts. They’d give a brief presentation on the differences with a focus on the benefits of districts and then take a Q&A for an hour or so from mentors at the event. I’d wager a person talking things through with you is more potent than a flier.

Ultimately, it sounds like you need a body in the state that’s willing to take on the effort of districts. Does the org you’ve got there now support the idea? If not, you’re likely going to want to start with them and get them convinced. Once you have the support of those implementing the thing, it’ll be easier to convince the rest.

[fishing_cat]

So I’ll try and answer some of Ryan’s questions, and as a MN FRC alum and current mentor in MI, districts are the way to go.

I think the obvious thing is to try to spread the word at week zero and/or offseason events. If people in favor of districts in MN want to not be told off, they can talk to the event organizers beforehand and try to get them onboard with districts and ask permission to hand out flyers, have a booth, or even give a presentation to lead/influential mentors on those teams at the event.

There are many benefits to districts but I’ll give my personal observations from here in MI. Having two district events lets teams interact with more local teams in the area more often, not just a one and done regional. Especially with no bag, it allows teams to make changes to their robot from their first district to their second (My team was able describe to other teams how adding a top roller drastically reduces backspin, and I know at least one team was able to add it to their robot and win their second district). Travel and hotel costs are greatly reduced and lets more parents/supporters be able to come and watch competition (that could become future volunteers). Cost per match also can be made into a talking point. One last point is that the world championship would be more attainable for MN teams in the district model. If more MN teams are able to go to worlds, they are able to get to see how other teams around the world run their team and build their robot, and in theory be able to learn this at worlds and transfer that knowledge to their next years robot, which local teams will be able to learn from at the district events and get that knowledge indirectly from those MN teams who went to the championship. So more MN teams at worlds means the competitiveness in MN would rise as well.

Jim Zondang from 33 is probably the best resource on how districts work. My team was fortunate enough to be able to talk with him after an offseason event and learn a lot on how 33 became competitive and how he initially proposed districts to FIRST. (I’d personally buy his plane ticket to MSP and have him give presentations to the FUM board and other offseason events, but I don’t know his schedule).

Obviously I do not know how hard it is to present to the FUM BOD, but if a cohesive group is able to talk to them and see what concerns they have, and to be able to give concrete answers to them, it would be the best step in the right direction.