MN State Tournament Selection Process

Competition Off-Season Events
1

As I feel like selecting teams for the MN State Robotics Tournament is a difficult process, I am curious to know what the thoughts of others are.

Recently, the standings of the MN robotics teams was announced here:
http://mnfirst.org/docs/2014/MSHSL_2014.pdf

I looked at the list and I noticed that several of the best teams in the state are not going to the tournament. I have no idea if the selection process is good or bad. I feel like it has its pluses and minuses. Here are the things that I do not know how I feel about:

1. Rookie teams and second year teams getting automatic points. Part of me feels like you need to earn your whole way to the tournament. The other part of me likes how all teams always have a chance in robotics and not just the best teams in the state.

2. You only get judged on your first competition. I like this in that it gives teams that can only afford to go to one regional as much of a chance as those teams who can afford more regionals. However, teams are not awarded for making improvements to their design between regionals, which is a difficult thing to do while the robot is in a bag.

3. The state tournament does not necessarily have the best teams in the state. Again, I like that robotics gives every team a chance. If it didn’t it could turn out like the MN state hockey tournament where the same teams are there every year. Though, for the teams that place at the state tournament, would it mean more if you know that you beat the best teams in the state?

These are not easy issues to resolve in my opinion.

If the system needs to be improved, I would have no idea how to improve it. I though about having each MN team rate the teams across the state. This system would create new problems, including that it would be unfair to teams who participate in regionals out of state. Maybe a hybrid system where your team ranking was based on performance and ranking would work?

Anyway, these are just the thoughts going through my head right now. I love MN robotics and all those that give their hard work to keep this going for the youth of MN.

I am curious to hear others’ thoughts on this matter. Do you like the system? Do you not like the system? Do you feel it needs minor changes? Keep it the same?

I would love to hear constructive discussion on this topic. Thanks to all for what has been a great season.

2

I think it’s a really interesting topic, and it comes down to what the intentions of the organizers are (and, to be clear, I really don’t know what they are).

If the tournament is intended to be a well-run offseason event for successful/lucky (like mine the last couple years) invited teams, it certainly meets that goal, as the tournament, while short, has been incredibly well-run both of the years I’ve competed at it. The small team structure, lightning fast qualification rounds, and fast-paced elimination tournament mean that this is probably one of the best run and most professional offseason events in Minnesota. It’s a bunch of fun to participate in and watch.

If the MSHSL tournament is intended to raise the profile and recognition of FIRST programs in Minnesota, it does this admirably-- official recognition and validation of FIRST teams goes a long ways for teams that don’t have friendly administrations at their schools. It also puts the program on par with all the other competitive high school activities in the state, and opens the door to more public interest.

If it’s supposed to determine who the best team in Minnesota is (in terms of robot or overall program), it is currently not meeting that goal. For the robot, the structure means that if a team significantly improves their robot between their first and second tournaments (as in the case of two regional winners this year, 3042 and 2177), they can still not qualify, meaning that even if a team ends up with an excellent robot, they still might not be competing at the State Tournament. If the tournament is supposed to determine the best robots in Minnesota, this is a major problem. Another issue is that teams with underperforming robots that win RCA are invited (this happened to my team last year), which can mean that more competitively strong teams are invited. The rookie bonuses also make no sense for this philosophy, as whether a team is a rookie or not has little bearing on how competitive they would be at the State Tournament. The elimination structure and low team count also mean that teams with the potential to be competitive are not invited, and of those that attend, potentially strong alliances in lower seeds aren’t allowed to form.

If the structure is supposed to be emulating a District Championships , it is also does not meet that goal, as other awards (like CA, EI, RAS) are not awarded, and the tournament’s sole emphasis on competition means that many FIRST values are not emphasized for the competition (this is most definitely not to say that teams don’t behave with gracious professionalism at the competition-- they most certainly do-- but rather that the structure emphasizes the competition above all else). Additionally, the low team count (30) and short elimination tournament play into this-- the tournament simply cannot in its current form recognize all the different aspects of excellence and how important this variety is in the FIRST program.

Like I said, I really don’t have any idea what the intent was behind creating the MSHSL tournament. I think it does a pretty good job of letting any team competing be able to qualify, at the expense of the competitiveness of the tournament. Overall I feel that the ambiguity in the system currently is a temporary problem that will be solved when MN goes to districts somewhere down the line (though that does raise some questions-- will we have two State Tournaments?).

I’m not too much of a fan of the current system, partially because it let my team qualify in 2012 and 2013 when I really don’t feel like we deserved to.

3

The MN State tournament selection process is based off of the district selection process which is universal for FIRST. The only difference between the 2 processes is that for the MN tourney teams are given 10 pts for submitting the Chairman’s Award. I think the tournament selection process makes sense in a lot of the things it does.
Awarding 10 pts for Chairman’s submission is a great incentive for all teams to submit the award and learn from the process. The fact that teams are only judged on their first event levels the playing field for teams that can’t afford to go to multiple regionals (a majority of MN teams) while not creating a disincentive for doing 2 regionals. It also emphasizes the importance of being prepared for the first regional attended. As for the best teams not necessarily being represented at the tournament I don’t see this as being a major problem. The teams that perform the best at their first regional are represented so the “best” teams better be at the top of their game for their first regional or they won’t qualify.
As for Rookie and Sophomore teams receiving a boost due to their age I may have a biased opinion. My team has benefited from this rule in each of the last 2 years and it has helped our program grow exponentially. I like giving new teams a bump because it helps inspire more students and more programs rather than the same dominate veteran teams every year. If the goal is to spread STEM (which in my opinion it is) then I am totally for giving a boost to young teams.
I’m not saying the system is perfect but I do think it is a good system. If changes do need to be made I as well would not know where to start.

4

First, I highly recommend that you look over the many other threads talking about the standard district point model like this one or this one. The MSHSL qualifying system is built off of this system.

As to your specific three concerns, here are my personal opinions:
**1. **This does not presently have a large effect on MN, since almost all of our teams are rookies relative to other regions. MN is still incredibly young. Also, the age bonus only effected 2 teams this year. If the age bonus did not exist, 2883 would have qualified instead of 4624, there would be no other change to the teams who qualified.

I cannot speak for either of these teams directly, but I do know that, in my personal experience, being on a newer team is tough. It is, of course, unfortunate for 2883, but if we are trying to build a system that lasts, I am perfectly fine with helping along the newer teams so that they can come back stronger next year. For example, last year, 4 rookie teams qualified for MSHSL: 4539, 4607, 4624, and 4656 (without the age bonus I might add). Every single one of those teams qualified again this year. I am sure that they would have been successful even if they had not qualified for the state championship, but I would hope that the extra chance to compete invigorated them even more.

Also, just a side note, I believe 2883 still has a solid chance to compete. If one of the qualified teams cannot attend for some reason, I believe that their slot transfers to 2883, although I am not positive.

**2. **I do not have the numbers right now, but I would estimate that only about 50 or so MN teams compete at multiple regionals. While there will be teams that improve drastically between competitions, I think in general these are fringe cases. I personally would not be opposed to having a system where the average score from 2 regionals is used, but I would not like a system where a team’s better regional is used, since this would almost certainly isolate the grand majority of teams that do not attend multiple regionals.

**3. **I am curious to know which teams you think should have qualified that didn’t. The teams that I can think of generally are the ones who competed at multiple regionals. Besides them (since that relates to 2), are there any teams that only competed at a single event that you believe should have qualified but didn’t?

5

I imagine eventually Minnesota will be in districts and perhaps we’ll have a state tournament before championship that both serves as MSHL victor as well as selecting all the other winners that our 4 regionals generally provide. Given that they already use a formula based on the district model to score eligibility I suspect this is where they are heading.

In the mean time, I do think it could be fair to count a team’s full score from their first regional, or 75% of their score from their second or 66% from their third. I’m going off memory, but iirc, 2177 wound up 5 captain (11? pts), had 16 qual pts and won 6 elims for 57. They got a judges award for +5 and I would guess they submitted chairman’s for another 10. That would have given them a score around 72. 75% of that would be 54 points which would probably have qualified them (many teams would see higher totals, but I would expect 54 would still make the cut).

But eventually under a full district model, such teams would have a fair shot to qualify anyway, so this is likely a shorter-term issue.

6

I think Minnesota is still a few years from going to a district model. I say this because we are currently struggling to get enough volunteers to fill 4 regional events. In my opinion it is more likely that we add a fifth regional before we go to the district model. Districts require a ton of volunteers that we currently don’t have. Hopefully I’m wrong and MN volunteers step up but I’m not overly optimistic for the short term.

7

Overall I’m glad that MSHSL has recognized robotics and puts on a State Championship.

One question I have is the automatic bid for Chairman’s Winners in light of the fact that performance for a teams first regional is the one that counts for state rankings.

Since teams can now submit for Chairmans at multiple regionals, this gives teams that compete in two regionals an advantage. If you compete in week 1 or 2, get feedback from the Judges, revamp your presentation at your second regional and win, you get an autobid (State & Champs). For teams that only do one regional, this seems to work against them. They only submit for CA once and have no chance to improve and resubmit.

Also, I’m not sure about the points for rookies and second year teams. As others have mentioned, it the objective to have the best performing teams, or a wide representation.

What about the date? Saturday’s in May are crazy busy. Would a Friday competition work? Think about fan buses coming in from various parts of the state to cheer on their local team. That would be another way to showcase FIRST. (Of course, then volunteers would have to take another vacation day and after Duluth & Minneapolis, that might be tough)

There are many questions / discussions / debates that can be held but I think it’s fantastic that we have this in Minnesota. It validates the hard work so many students put in, and when you can tell someone “Robotics is recognized by the MSHSL” it does change opinions.

Good luck to all the teams competing on May 17th.

8

I’d agree, which is why, while I don’t particularly like the current system, I also don’t feel like it’s worth complaining about. An in-line District Championship would be a major step up in this regard.

While it’s not coming next year, and it most likely won’t be coming the year after that, I think the road we’re heading down will lead to districts a few years down the line. I’d be surprised if we were still in Regionals by 2020 (though that’s so far down the line that it probably isn’t worth speculating about).

Like I said, it comes down to intent. I feel like the current system is trying to do too many things at once, and we all know how well that goes down when you build a robot!

9

These are my own personal opinions and not the opinions of team 2175.

Let me start off by saying in my opinion the purpose of the event should be to determine the best teams in Minnesota. This in my opinion is the best way to introduce the public to FIRST, by showing them the best our state has to offer. My issues with the current system and suggested fixes:

Chairman’s Award:
I feel like if this is going to be an auto bid to the state tournament we need to award a chairman’s winner at state. I would also not be against having teams who won chairman’s (as well as EI and RAS) only compete for those awards.

Age Bonus:
I really don’t like these points, but I get their purpose. I know this only affected one team not making it, but that team (FRED) easily has one of the best robots in the states (top ten or so I would say). I personally think that the best way to inspire younger teams is not to have them at the state competition because they are simply younger but to have them their because their robot was one of the best in the state (I’m looking at you 5172). I think having only the best of the best in the state gives everyone else something to strive for. I know I wouldn’t feel like I deserved to be at champs just because my team was younger, whats the saying, age is just a number.

Only counting points from first event:
First off let me say if I had my way teams would get the points equal to what they got at their best event, this would drastically improve the competition at the state tournament. I haven’t done the math but lots of teams with great robots (2883, 3206, 2177, 2472, 2491, 2220, 3130) all had amazing second events and definitely are among the top 28 in the state and were all hurt because they didn’t do as good at their first event. I know there will always be the argument of the “fairness” of using a teams best event but in my opinion if a team raised enough money to build a competitive robot and go to two events the deserve to use the score from their best event. A compromise I would suggest to this is having teams use the average of there two scores. This would still hurt teams who had a bad first event, but would not eliminate their chances of making it to state.

Needless to say I can’t wait for MN Districts.

Also does anyone know why the tournament is held at Williams I think Mariucci is a much better venue.

10

Funny, I think that Williams is better. Maybe that’s why your team goes to North Star and my team goes to 10K. :slight_smile:

11

Williams is definitely not better for tall robots :stuck_out_tongue: Last year at the MSHSL tournament it was a massive pain having to take our 5’ tall robot (7’ with the Full Court Shooter Blocker) off of our 3’ tall cart just so we could fit through the doors leading out of the pit area. Conveniently 4607 has another 5’ tall robot again this year. Luckily we bought a shorter cart :yikes:

12

I wouldn’t count on this happening- If/when Minnesota moves to the district model, it will likely include some of our neighbor states (or at least pieces of our neighbor states), making it difficult to name an MSHSL champion at the district championship. Of course any talk about districts right now is purely hypothetical, so you never know!

It would definitely be interesting, but I see a few problems:

  • As you pointed out, volunteers need to take more time off
  • Some schools aren’t as keen to take students out of school, especially around May
  • The number of non-team spectators would drop to near 0

I have asked this before, and if I recall correctly it is because most UMN colleges hold commencement in Mariucci during the tournament. This year there are commencement ceremonies the day before and the day after the MSHSL tournament.

13

It would definitely be interesting, but I see a few problems:

  • As you pointed out, volunteers need to take more time off
  • Some schools aren’t as keen to take students out of school, especially around May
  • The number of non-team spectators would drop to near 0

We tried to get a fan bus to attend last year, the school was supportive but students didn’t want to give up a Saturday, they travel on school days for other sports.

Thankfully there were a few car-loads that came and had a blast. Plus their eyes were opened as to what FIRST and FRC was all about.

14

As a rookie team last year the state tournament was great and helped build our team. Sadly it’s date on May 17th is the same day as our school’s prom and it was on the same day as prom last year. I and others on my team were unable and will not be able to attend.

15

As for having the “best” teams at the state level, I would say that it is no different than in any other sport. Many times teams that are arguably better than others don’t make it to the state level due to many reasons, such as having a highly competitive section. Often two of the best teams in the state are in the same section but only one goes on to state, even though they probably could have been 1st and 2nd in the state.

My opinion is that teams need to do well right away and if you don’t like the results of the early events, only attend later ones once strategies have been worked out. I don’t feel that teams that are able to go to a second regional should be able to take ANY results towards state points (including a Chairman’s Award). That would make it the most level playing field.

Fwiw, teams MAY also have had better/worse results at events solely on beneficial/tough qualification schedules, not necessarily due to better performance.

As for date…it is the same day as our school’s graduation so our team will have NO seniors in attendance. Luckily our drivers that will be there have some drive experience. Good luck to all who attend!

16

First, off thank you to the individuals giving shout outs to my team, it’s much appreciated. While it’s true that my team usually does much better at our second event (last year was the only time in 7 years of doing 2 events that we did better in our first event!), I can tell you that my team doesn’t see the ranking system as unfair, and we’re happy where we finished at 38th in the rankings. In fact, you’ll be seeing some of our students in volunteer shirts at the event anyways :slight_smile:

Now, to get to the ranking system. For those who don’t know, or those from out of state, here is an explanation of the entire tournament: http://mnfirst.org/docs/2014/2014_MSHSL.pdf

The state tournament is part of being a MSHSL recognized organization. Having it comes right along with the official Robotics Letter for the state, and some other recognition from the state, and it probably helps your teachers get recognition from the schools for all the work they do with the teams.

In order to hold a fair and representative State Tournament, we need to have some way of ranking teams. This is a surprisingly difficult task. How do you determine how “good” a robot is? Is a team that looses in the quarter finals to the #1 seed any worse than the team that loose in the semifinals to the #1 seed? Maybe, maybe not. Given the small number of events we have, and the small number of plays each team gets at each event, there really is no perfect way to rank the teams.

Is it fair to only count the first regional each team attends? Without a doubt yes. Does it mean that some teams who end the season with great robots don’t get to states? Yes. And that is extremely unfortunate. However, given the nature of the competition we’re in, if you have the time and money to attend multiple events, it’s only natural for you to continuously improve on your performance, and I don’t think it’s worth sacrificing fairness in order to recognize those teams who have that time and money.

For the extra points awarded to rookies and second year teams… I say AWESOME! I see the State Tournament as essentially half a regional, and the overall team representation should reflect the regional makeup of our 4 events - and with 2 rookies and 6 second year teams, I think we managed to do alright.

The best and fairest way we can select teams for the tournament is to mimic what FIRST already has in place for districts. FIRST cuts team’s off after 2 district events (in terms of points) because that’s what every team gets - 2 events. For us, every team gets 1 event, and that’s where we set the cutoff. I’m sure there are teams in the various district areas that raised extra money and did 3 or 4 district events, continuously improved across those events, yet didn’t get in because their first two events weren’t good enough.

Congrats to all the teams that made it in. The system isn’t flawed - you all got in because you deserve it.

Oh, and make sure your robot is bagged, and you follow the Bag and Tag rules for the event. Direct any questions or concerns to me, as I’ll be the one talking to you if you roll into the event with a problem :slight_smile: