Modifying/Removing E36 and E37 for the 2018 FRC Season

FIRST General Forum
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Recently parts of the four major American sports leagues have been embroiled with the latest round of protests against police brutality and racial inequality in the US. Multiple athletes, coaches, owners–leaders of these leagues have embraced the idea started last summer by Colin Kaepernick in kneeling during the national anthem at events to communicate their message.

While FIRST is an organization that is smaller than these and focuses on STEM recognition and inspiration, its mission is analogous to these leagues, like the NBA:

At the NBA we compete with intensity, lead with integrity and inspire play. We do so by focusing on four key elements of our game.

Integrity: We conduct ourselves in accordance with the highest standards of honesty, ethics and fair dealing.

Teamwork: We work hard, communicate clearly and collaborate without regard to departmental lines or individual goals, and we have fun while doing it.

Respect: We value individuality and diversity and are courteous to each other, to our fans and our business partners. We will do our utmost to ensure that everyone feels welcome at our games, our events and our workplace.

Innovation: We encourage creative thinking. We are progressive and embrace the opportunity to try new things – and we are not afraid to fail.

The mission of FIRST is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders and innovators, by engaging them in exciting Mentor-based programs that build science, engineering, and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.

As you can see, while we aren’t always running around with orange spheroids like in the NBA, we both celebrate innovative thinking and education along with developing and displaying critical life skills outside of the core competencies of the program.

So, since these leagues allow for this form of peaceful protest, is it time FIRST does the same?

While certain events have incredible difficulty following the rules posted in Rules & Expectations for FIRST Robotics Competition Events (here’s to you, E35!), all of these rules and guidelines written here are to be followed at all events including:

E36. Team members (including any remaining in the team pit) must observe the code of behavior for the presentation of all national anthems.

**E37. **Team members must stand facing the flag, maintain a respectful silence, and remove hats during national anthems.

Consider current events. Consider the inherent politics and public-driving interests of FIRST events (how many teams receive direct contributions from a government agency? How many events feature a government official or other employee as a featured speaker or guest? How many events and teams are hosted in public buildings?). Consider FIRST’s efforts in its strategic plan to speak up for and enable underserved communities; communities that are underserved due to unfair socioeconomic pressures that have persisted for centuries. Has the time come for FIRST to reverse this decision? I would offer up an emphatic “YES”, but I don’t know if the folx in Manchester really care what I think.

If you would like to support or otherwise discuss the reasoning for such an initiative, I invite you to engage with discussion below.

Conversely, if you would like to stifle the dialogue with the following points

  • convince yourself and others that these protests are about protesting the military or the country for some misguided reason
  • weakly lament the inclusion of politics in your xyz (as mentioned above, it’s been here for a while)
  • share your personal insight into your perception of the real issues facing minority communities in America in a way that anyone with a soul would find disgusting and repugnant
  • invoke free speech as your strategy to dissuade this, despite the textbook level of hypocrisy

this is not the thread for you.

I’ve already dropped a line to a mod about this thread. He doesn’t have much of a life, so I hope he can watch it. :slight_smile:

1 Like
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Nothing like a nice, simple, non-controversial Sunday CD post to start the week. (/Sarcasm) :smiley: (Disclaimer: This post, and any of my replies are my personal opinions and do not necessarily represent those of my team, students, or school.)

I believe in the 1st Amendment. I also believe in the limits to that right, such that your speech should not cause harm to others. (Eg. Yelling “FIRE” in a crowded auditorium. Speech, yes. Dangerous, yes. Likely to get someone hurt, yes. Don’t do it.)

I also believe in the rights of others to stand and pay their respects to their flag and anthem. I believe that those rights can coexist, insofar as each respects the other.

I have no objection to a person or people taking a knee during their anthem. This quiet protest does not interfere with the rights of others to pay their respects. I would have an objection if the protest actively interfered with others ability to pay respects, eg yelling over the anthem.

That said, does this belong in a FIRST competition? Perhaps, but it is not for me to say. Do we have groups that participate in FIRST that are marginalized or have reason to protest, sure. Should FIRST prohibit their respectful freedom of speech, I don’t think so. Should FIRST prohibit disruptive speech at these times, I believe so.

Would I be in favor of removing the rules completely, maybe. I would be willing to alter them to allow for a personal, respectful, protest, eg leaving the room, taking a knee, etc. I would not think it’s in FIRST’s best interests, however, to actively condone them, but to rather respect that person’s choice.

Thus, if the decision is to change the rule, how do you do so in a manner that doesn’t actively condone it? Perhaps removing it, and hoping for the best, is the only way?

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Spot-on.

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to PayneTrain again.

High school students, especially in my community, are some of the most politically engaged people I have seen. I know that any requirement to stand for the national anthem, considering current events, would antagonize some of these people. With this in mind, it is also possible that said person would be turned off to joining robotics with these rules in place.

If a petition to FIRST is needed to change and/or remove this rule, I shall make one.

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And then remove E37 - Boom done.

Granted - if you can accept that change then I’d urge you to consider removing E36 entirely because it gets handled by other rules in regards to just being respectful to others.

And regardless of Thomas err… Wil Payne bringing this up - we were going to have to deal with students and mentors doing it this year - I suspect many a HS sports team in the US will be suspending young players this year due to these kinds of protests - lets not do the same with FIRST students.

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You must spread some reputation around before giving it to marshall again.

Gee, what I actually should do is make a petition to Brandon to remove the rule on how many times in a row you can give a user rep on here.

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I agree, people have right to protest peacefully, and that right is guaranteed by the United States. But unlike the NBA or NFL, FIRST is international. If the rules in question were removed, think about the message that FIRST would be delivering. It would be one of disrespect for all nations. Sure, there are national tensions, but FIRST looks to resolve those. In all FIRST programs, people are competing with and against international teams, and those teams are present at the ceremonies where flags are raised and anthems sang. Now to take this into respect of the USA, if our own citizens cannot respect what the flag represents, how could all the other people, national and international, respect it. Same goes for international teams.

I cannot say how proud I was at the Greater Pittsburgh Regional to see 2 Chinese teams teams rise and give respect to our national traditions, and how the US teams reciprocated the effort by listening to their anthem and remaining respectful and standing during that time. This is what FIRST is pushing for! Respect of all nations and cultures!

Also, many veterans who fought for that flag are present at FIRST events, many being judges or mentors. Imagine what kind of message that would send to them, that we cannot honor the sacrifices they have made.

I would recommend that if a person has an issue with what the flag represents, they should actively pursue to change it for the good. This cannot be done by not recognizing what it represents, only by going out and making it a flag that YOU want to stand and salute.

This does not reflect the opinions of my team as a entity, and I want to discuss this issue so that respect for people is upheld.

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The following are the view of myself and only myself, not the team.

I tend to argue to opposite. Why does respect for our nation, or respect for our nation’s change require a rule? Standing for a nation should be a choice, for your own respect. There is no rule in FIRST about having to blindly respect someone else’s opinion, it’s greatly implied in the spirit of Gracious Professionalism, but by no means required. That, right there, should be the ethos of this. It’s a personal choice stemming from our first amendment rights, and in the spirit of Gracious Professionalism, you should either make a point or be respectful. If you have a legitimate problem with that country’s policies, like the US or any other, you have a right to protest, no matter what the occasion. Ambivalence, like you are suggesting, is certainly against the whole spirit of FIRST in general, and if you have students showing pure disrespect (or mentors or volunteers, for that matter), that’s more an issue of the core values of FIRST being lost, and that’s simply not solved by putting in a overarching rule like this to try and force this issue.

Also, many veterans who fought for that flag are present at FIRST events, many being judges or mentors. Imagine what kind of message that would send to them, that we cannot honor the sacrifices they have made.

I’m not going to get into too much politics here, but I would argue that most veterans would prefer to see this action. They are seeing that the people and students around them are willing to stand up to injustice, to fight what they need to, and to try and make this country the best it can be, in their view. What’s to say that a veteran gets insulted at any other sporting event? FIRST should be no different, allowing for respectful disagreement and respectful protest. You aren’t burning flags, or rioting in the street, it’s a simple thing to show that you are in solidarity with those in need in this country.

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Okay, I only saw protesting the military, and I assumed active military.

Respectfully, I would like to say that the point that many military veterans involved with FIRST would find the removal of the rule upsetting.

Edit: would it be agreed upon that people should try to create a representation for the flag that they would salute?

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Could it be argued that conversely, the implementation of the rule can upset people?

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I was going to stay out of this thread for lack of anything to add, but both of those organizations are emphatically not just in the United States:

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How long has the rule been in place?

I do not create the rules, but the reason behind it’s creation should be taken up with FIRST hq.

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It has existed in some way, shape, or form for the 10 years I have been involved. Others are welcome to speak more clearly.

The purpose of this thread is to allow those who work at Manchester and browse this website to get this topic on the radar, so to speak. They read the boards.

Could it be argued that conversely, the implementation of the rule can upset people?

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Yes it could be argued that. The rule regards removal of hats and respectful silence and appropriate behavior. Couldn’t people protest in other ways?

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It could. Conversely, could there be other ways police engage with minority communities?

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Yes, I advocate for that, and this supports the argument that people should advocate for a flag that they want to salute for.

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Would you say that by volunteering thousands of hours of my time to grow a diverse and inclusive STEM program over the last 6 years, I am advocating for a country (and flag) I would want to stand for?

Would you say that donating hundreds of thousands of dollars to various organizations while unemployed and starting an organization to raise awareness on higher education, self empowerment, and instruction to properly interact with law enforcement in various scenarios is enough to advocate for the flag they want to stand for?

At what point will you allow people to express their rights to bring forth issues pertaining to the oppression of themselves and their communities in a way that makes you comfortable?

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You know, I get when celebrities do it in front of a hundred thousand people and on camera for millions. It creates a national conversation and can be a catalyst for change.

But what’s the point behind someone without such celebrity doing it in the stands where, most likely, very few would actually notice? There has to be better ways to support such an effort and create change within their own neighborhoods.

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A few requests have been made to quiet this topic.

If the discussion gets out of hand, a different moderator may call for closing the thread.

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Well, for starters - it’s a show of solidarity and support. Arguably the original students in Tinker v. Des Moines weren’t going to make much of an impact either.

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Would it be disrespectful for US citizens to sit during the playing of other nations’ anthems at an event?

Would it be disrespectful for citizens of other nations to sit while most of the audience continued to stand for the US anthem?

Would it be disrespectful if everyone sat instead of standing for all national anthems?

Would it be disrespectful if everyone continued to stand during all national anthems?

My answers to these questions would be “Yes, Yes, Yes, No.” Ergo, why don’t we all just stand for the duration of the period specifically set aside for recognition and respect of the nations represented at each robotics competition?