Hello friends, Quick question. if a team design a robots as a modular unit meaning the robot will be able to be torn apart an assembly at competition is it legal? if legal how the bag and tag procedure? as international team can we travel with our robot in modules bag and tagged and get to the event with the robot and assemble there?
Thanks for the help.
I know that 4613 shipped their robot in checked bags this year. Here is a time-lapse of their rebuild. You might ask someone from their team how they did that and how it worked out for them.
So I know it can be done and it is legal (at least according to 2017 bag n’ tag rules). I don’t have the rules in front of me right now but if I remember correctly, you can ship your unassembled robot bagged and it would not count against your withholding allowance and be perfectly legal. Again that is assuming that the bag rules remain the same for 2018.
Edit: I found the rule
R15. All ROBOT elements (including items intended for use during the competition in alternative
configurations of the ROBOT), with the exception of the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE per R21,
BUMPERS, and COTS items, must be bagged and sealed, by 04:59 UTC on Stop Build Day,
Wednesday, February 22, 2017.
As long as this rule remains the same, the process you described, of bagging the parts and assembling them at competition is perfectly legal.
I remember asking this question in the past. If you aren’t going to change anything on your robot with taking a module off and putting it back on for something like ease of access, then it is totally legal. However, if you are going to make it modular in order to switch between different mechanisms (like switching between a gear intake or shooter for different matches), then you’d have to get inspected each time you change your modules. For me, the hassle would be too much of a bother to consider it.
Per R16 last year:
For convenience, Teams may disassemble their ROBOT and use two (2) bags to “Bag and Tag” the pieces. However, no more than two (2) bags may be used and each bag must have its own numbered tag and entry on the ROBOT Lock-up Form.
You may certainly disassemble your robot to whatever degree you’d like to make it more easy to transport. However, all parts (outside of any withholding allowance, 30 lbs per R21 for 2017) has to be within those two bags, properly sealed.
Most teams that travel internationally workout shipping to their event for their robot. Please see the FIRST Robot Transportation page for more information on how to do so.
The relevant rules here are
R15
All ROBOT elements (including items intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT), with the exception of the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE per R21, BUMPERS, and COTS items, must be bagged and sealed, by 04:59 UTC on Stop Build Day
And R16
For convenience, Teams may disassemble their ROBOT and use two (2) bags to “Bag and Tag” the pieces. However, no more than two (2) bags may be used and each bag must have its own numbered tag and entry on the ROBOT Lock-up Form.
…and for reference, R21:
At an Event, Teams may have access to a WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE is a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 30 lbs. (~13 kg.), brought to an event (or ROBOT Access Period) in addition to the bagged items, to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. With permission from another Team, Teams may also have access to FABRICATED ITEMS that are part of that other Team’s WITHOLDING ALLOWANCE to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event. Items made at an Event do not count towards this weight limit.
…so you can break the robot into 2 separate pieces. If you wish to use the witholding allowance, you could potentially break it up even further.
Not what was being asked, I’m afraid. This one’s for transportation–make it disassemble into and reassemble from a suitcase.
3882 did the same thing, IIRC. It was fun asking to see their robot and then having them open a suitcase and there everything was, in a bag. A couple years before they’d done the same thing with sticking their robot in a crate.
Goes like this: Bag the parts (in 2 bags if need be), stick bag(s) in suitcase(s), enter the event and open the suitcase(s) to show the inspectors what you have. Going home you won’t need the bags (unless you qualify for Championship).
You could also use a shipping crate and avoid the problem, but then you have freight fees which could get really expensive. I’m not sure if there’s a FedEx voucher for teams in your situation or not but it’d be worth looking into.
thanks that is what i’m asking, all responses are really helpfull
Not quite!
So, using last year’s rules, you may swap out modules without re-inspection as long as all of them where inspected and the total weight of all of them is within the weight limit.
The way you worded your statement above is a bit misleading, so I want to make sure this is made clear.
You can use up to 2 bags to “bag and tag” your robot. However within each bag, the robot can be broken up into as many parts as you wish. Theoretically you could have nothing but individual parts in each bag with absolutely nothing assembled (I have indeed seen this at the start of an event, too many times unfortunately). This means in one bag I could have a drivetrain assembly, an intake assembly, and a climbing assembly, while in a 2nd bag I could have a hopper assembly, and a shooter assembly (obviously using last season for this example).
In addition, I could have 2 different intake assemblies, say one for gears and one for balls. I can have both of these sub-assemblies in one of my two allowed bags. As long as I include both of these mechanisms during inspection, I can swap back and forth between these two mechanisms without needing to be reinspected every time.
So, using last year’s rules, you may swap out modules without re-inspection as long as all of them where inspected and the total weight of all of them is within the weight limit.[/quote]
This is actually something I’m not sure is entirely clear in the rules. If I have two different intake assemblies as an example, and I want to switch between using the two for different matches, I’m not sure the wording of the quoted rule above stipulates that both mechanisms must be included in the weighing of the robot simultaneously. The fact that they include the word “reconfigured” (emphasized above) seems to allow for having multiple configurations of the robot that include uniquely different subsystems. I read this as being able to have all different configurations inspected at the beginning of the event, and being able to use any of those inspected configurations throughout the event at my choosing without having to be reinspected after a change from one inspected configuration to another.
Perhaps an LRI or Al himself could shed some more light on this to verify my thoughts above or tell me I’m way off.
Well I Am getting a lot of good information thanks for your clarifications.
I’m not an LRI, just an experienced RI.
Start with R04. R04. The ROBOT weight must not exceed 120 lbs. When determining weight, the basic ROBOT structure and all elements of all additional MECHANISMS that might be used in different configurations of the ROBOT shall be weighed together. [Emphasis mine. Note that this excludes bumpers and batteries.]
Thus, if you have two intakes (one gear-only and one fuel+gear, let’s say), they both go on the scale together, along with the rest of the robot. If you forget one, you’re stuck with the one you put on the robot unless you re-inspect. Doesn’t apply to identical spares, though.
The usual comment about next years rules may be different. The inspected robot must be under 120lbs. That includes all mechanisms. Anything that puts the robot over 120 lb is by definition not part of the robot. You can remove/add inspected component without re-inspection, but if your robot appearance changes drastically expect questions. If you do not use all the components in a match, the match weight will be less than the inspected weight. Every time you have the robot reinspected, all components need to be present. In most venues it will be reweighed. If you add anything that puts the robot over 120 lb you will have to remove something to bring it under 120lb. The removed components become not part of the robot. IF you add them back, you will have to get reinspected.
Correct interpretation. One robot, two intakes, different configs, both must be on the scale at the same time and at 120.0 or less. Under last year’s rules. No comment on 2018 as they are not published yet.
The other option is getting reinspecting (and reweighed) every time you switch “configurations”
I love all responses and some are super informative. But I will like to make clear that our intentions are purely for transport, as cool as it sound using different modules and different configuration that is not what we want. we want to be able to transport the robot basically inside Check bags for easy of shipping as international team.
If you inspect with one configuration, then change that configuration for another, and both configurations weigh more than 120, you must choose one, and the other goes away and cannot be reintroduced during that competition.
Look at it this way, Team 123456 comes in with 3 bags full of robot. 3000 lbs of robot, 27 different gear manipulators, 14 different fuel shooters and 31 different climbers. They are able to customize robot configuration based on the needs of each upcoming match. Where is the parity?
One of the lessons of FIRST is to limit resources each team has, (in this case, time, money, robot weight and functionality) to teach students the skills needed to thrive in the real world. Make as many prototypes you want, but decide which one is optimal for your strategy.
In my business, human space life support, we have to work with limited budgets and tight schedules that are defined by orbital mechanics. Can’t get much more limited than that!
I don’t remember that rule, can I get a source? (not being sarcastic, I’d actually like to see the rule)
Not quite. If your robot is at max weight and you decide to swap one mechanism for another, you get reinspected. Congratulations, the new mechanism is now considered part of your inspected robot while the old one is not.
Want to change back? You need to get reinspected again. Every time you switch between those configurations, you must get reinspected if you can’t fit both configurations within the weight limit.
This follows I05 “Unless the change is listed below, any change to a ROBOT must get re-inspected.” There is no judgement in the rules that would eliminate prior configurations from eligibility just because you already made a change away from it.
Granted, as an LRI I’m going to get pretty annoyed with you if you come up for reinspection because you swapped configurations between every single match. But annoyed != illegal.
Nope. Jon typically you read my mind but not this time. Dana is correct.
The ROBOT weight must not exceed 120 lbs. When determining weight, the basic ROBOT structure and all elements of all additional MECHANISMS that might be used in different configurations of the ROBOT shall be weighed together.
Let’s say a team comes to competition with a 100 lb robot drive train and a 15 lb ball shooter and a 10 lb rope climber. Collectively these “modules” weigh 125 lbs. Oops, they are over the 120 lb weight limit. Option A) They could go back to their pit and madly drill holes in everything and try to take off 5 lbs. Option B) Lets say they decide to just put their shooter on the chassis/drive train and weigh in. Now they are 115 lbs and pass inspection. They take to the field and play a few matches and decide their shooter isn’t up to par for the competition and that they really need to put their rope climber on. So they go back to their pits and remove their shooter and “upgrade” their robot by adding their rope climber. They now weigh 110 lbs, get reinspected, and are legal to take the field again. However, they cannot put their 15 lb shooter back on and switch back and forth getting reinspected every other match as they can’t meet the “all elements of all additional MECHANISMS that might be used in different configurations of the ROBOT shall be weighed together” part of the rule. Now, of course, if they could remove 5 lbs from their shooter, they would be free to put it back on, get reinspected, and now compete with “all elements of all additional MECHANISMS that might be used in different configurations of the ROBOT shall be weighed together”.
This is my interpretation of the rule as well. In 2015, we would take ballast off of our robot whenever we needed to use our tote ramp; this required a trip to the inspection booth prior to almost every match. It wasn’t fun, but it was the right move and totally legal.