Moving away from REV Motors and Controllers

[Nathan2129]

Ever since 2022, we have used NEOs and SPARK MAXes on our robots. In 2022 we had some mostly self-inflicted issues with NEOs due to improper gearing leading to us burning out a few motors. This was frustrating at first but we largely looked past it when we re-did our math and found that it was our mistake.

In 2023, we designed our arm using two NEOs for motion (we triple-checked our math). At practice before a competition, the arm completely seized up and we could not move it. After some investigation, we found that 3 of the permanent magnets in the core of the motor had become dislodged, seizing the motor. After replacing the seized motor, we went back to practice and the same issue soon happened with the other motor. After this, we inspected all of the new NEO 1.1s we had purchased for the season and found that many of them had magnets that were either loose or the glue was very weak. We reached out to REV customer support and they offered to replace the motors as it was within 30 days of purchase, they also told us that this issue had only happened in their testing when the motor was dropped. After talking with a few other teams, we found that they had experienced similar issues to us. My current theories are that a shipment from REV to Minnesota somehow experienced a shock or it is a quality control issue. I really want to give REV the benefit of the doubt in this situation as this is the first (and only) time we have experienced this specific issue.

While we have complaints about the full-size NEOs, we have minor issues with the 550s as well. Our main issue that that the wires for the encoder often break. On the connector side, we are able to repair it but we are out of luck on the motor side. Since then, we have tried our best to be careful with the wires by not pulling on them directly. Obviously, FRC is not kind to robots so we have still broken a few wires. Most of our issues with NEO 550s seem like our fault so I don’t want to knock on REV too hard for this.

We also have had assorted other gripes such as REV Hardware Client. It is often finicky and it is inconvenient that we can’t see the whole CAN bus from one program. We have also had two SPARK MAXs die suddenly for seemingly no reason. It is very possible that it was our fault so I don’t want to make any claims without evidence.

In conclusion, we have decided to no longer use any REV motion products such as NEOs, SPARK MAXs, and VORTEX. We came to this conclusion after seeing continued issues with their products. Our experiences with customer service have also been somewhat frustrating. None of the reps have been rude but sometimes it has taken a while to get to our emails which is often frustrating especially when it’s not with the news that we want. Of course, rules are made to be broken and I’m sure we will go back but, at least for next season we won’t use REV motors

the first NEO we pulled a part to inspect the permanent magnets on the side.

The damage our gearbox suffered from the NEO sizing.

the mounting of the NEOs in our gearbox

Our method of mounting the NEO to a sport gearbox and then to our gearbox

[EricH]

@Nathan2129

We do not support IFI and VEX but we still use their products as they are legitimately better.

If that’s the case, I suggest the Kraken from WCP.

That is all.

[Ryan_Swanson]

@Nathan2129

I will not be replying to comments on this post.

This doesn’t make a ton of sense to me. Why create a thread if you’re not looking to engage with it?

For what it’s worth my experience with both REV products and REV support has been incredible. They’ve consistently owned any mistakes they’ve made. They’ve stood behind their products and went above and beyond when things have gone wrong. I received responses within minutes when we were going through MAX Swerve wheels. To me it was a master class of customer support and I really appreciated the quick response times, zero hesitation to replace products, and effective technical support to help us identify what we were doing wrong.

@Nathan2129

Luckily, the motor were still under warranty so they offered to replace them but we have yet to receive the replacements.

This makes no sense to me at all and doesn’t align with any of interactions I’ve had with REV customer support. Are you sure you confirmed with them the need for new products? There’s typically a couple emails like that before they send out the new products.

[davepowers]

@Nathan2129

not be answering any questions

You lost me.

[Jsteel]

Rev products have been great for us consistently, and customer service has been much better than other vendors.

We did have problems with NEO motors on our tank drive last year, but our troubleshooting led us to issues we did as the most likely causes.

The fact that you said you won’t be responding makes your post looks like a hit piece against Rev, not a legitimate discussion of issues.

[Greg_Needel]

Hi @Nathan2129 I am sorry that you have had some issues with REV products that lead to this post. I went back and took a look in our system and only found the one ticket from you recently about your driver hub, but I can’t find any tickets from you about NEOs.

On the Driver hub, someone from my team responded yesterday that the issue was due to a drop or physical damage and was outside the warranty period and linked you to our repair service so you can get back up and running for less than buying a new one

If you can send me the support case number for the NEOs I am happy to look into it and do our best to resolve it.

As others have mentioned in this thread, REV is not perfect. We make mistakes, but we always stand behind the things that we do and will provide support to teams. It is often hard to determine if damage was caused by a manufacturing defect or team damage, so we do our best to try and diagnoses the issues with each team the best that we can. We subscribe to a constant improvement policy, where we will regularly revisit all aspects of our business for ways to improve our products and process.

I also understand that teams have a choice when it comes to the products they choose on their robot and our products are not right for everyone. Regardless of the products that you choose we wish you and your team best of luck in the upcoming seasons. If you would like to follow up more please feel free to send us another email to [email protected] and we can look into any unresolved issues you may have.

[Akash_Rastogi]

I’m not a huge Neo or Spark (not vortex or spark flex) fan due to reliability issues I’ve seen amongst friends and other teams but I will confidently say Rev has excellent customer service when it comes to reporting and solving any product issues. I’m surprised by your experience.

It’s important to give vendors the benefit of the doubt in most cases. There’s tons of times when emails from school accounts don’t go through for example or are sent to spam. If people should learn any lesson over the past few years with vendors, it’s to grant everyone a little bit of grace.

I do want to point out to other people that this entire robot was discussed in their prior thread. @Ryan_Swanson for what it’s worth I do feel these guys know what they’re doing.

Quality Control Issues on V1.1 NEOs

There’s a lot of gaslighting-adjacent behavior going on in this thread. OPs robot and gear ratios seem incredibly reasonable. They have reported that even brand new NEO 1.1 have this issue. Other users have chimed in to say they have the same issue. It is painfully clear to me that NEO 1.1 has a serious QC issues at this point. @Greg_Needel may need to debug this soon to know how many motors are affected and prevent more faulty ones from making their way to teams. EDIT: it’s actually almost f…

[Ryan_Swanson]

Hi Nathan,

I’d be happy to follow up on this outside of this forum. I’d also be happy to drive down and discuss application specific items with your team at some point before the build season. I’ve had a ton of luck with REV DUO and ION equipment and would love to discuss further if that would be of interest to your team. Have a representative from your team reach out.

[Techno-1155]

We’ve also encountered issues with the wires on the NEO 550-turns out it was our fault. The way we had our arm wiring configured, it was putting an unnatural amount of stress on the NEO wires, resulting in them pulling out. While they are fragile, I’d suggest working on figuring out what’s pulling on them in the first place, and fixing that, as it’ll make your robot wiring much more robust if you can decrease places where the wires are under that much tension.

On a separate note, when we reached out to REV last year after noticing that in every single one of our Maxswerve modules, the motor keys were deformed, we got a response within a day, and received a pack of 20 more the next week, along with instructions on how to prevent the problem in the future. While some of their products aren’t perfect, we’ve had a great time with their support thus far.

[MikLast]

@Nathan2129

Also, given some the responses to my comment saying I won’t reply were, in my opinion, incredibly rude and just goes to further cement my position.

CD isint the greatest at being the most GP at times but i personally think all the responses here have been valid gentle criticism towards what looks to be a fairly inflammatory post, especially considering this comment:

@Nathan2129

We do not support IFI and VEX but we still use their products as they are legitimately better.

[justicht]

@Jsteel

Rev products have been great for us consistently

As a team ordering NEOs for the first time this year, I’m relieved to see comments like this. I’m sure no matter what, I’ll like them more than our CIMs.

[Rufus_t_Doofus]

@Nathan2129

IFI and VEX but we still use their products as they are legitimately better.

This is one point that I will hazzard to question. Yes, you may have had better experiences with VEX’s products thusfar, I suspect that you’ve happened to be lucky there. My expectation comes from many people sharing their experiences with particularly unexeptional Falcon quality control. Again, not to say that you haven’t had theses issues, but I fear that with more trust, you might get bit. As Eric said, I’d suggest looking into the Kraken from WCP.

[Kadd]

our team has a couple of NEOs but we almost never use them as we generally have disliked the REV software as compared to CTREs phoenix5/6, I can’t attest to the reliability of the NEO motors, but if your looking for new motors this year Kraken X60 seems to be the way to go, they look like they should hopefully be in stock for the season, as well as being just around as powerful as Falcons at same wattage, though we will see when they are actually shipping.

[john3928]

@Akash_Rastogi

… I do want to point out to other people that this entire robot was discussed in their prior thread. …

There’s a lot of gaslighting-adjacent behavior going on in this thread.

I’ve read completely through both threads and perhaps the OP is speaking of some other topic entirely, but I’m just not seeing it. No one is suggesting the OP didn’t experience their experience. People replying that they have had different experiences is not gaslighting. People suggesting other possibilities to check is not gaslighting.

BTW, it is 100% possible that your motor was dropped between REV and you w/o you knowing it. REV: ShockWatch stickers are <$2 in quantity, I’d spring for that shipping add-on on orders of drop-sensitive parts.

[Akash_Rastogi]

Your quote says gaslight-adjacent. I don’t have a better word for that and I doubt @asid61 did either, but I do agree with that comment.

That quote is also referring to people suggesting there’s something wrong inherently with their robot design, not that they didn’t experience issues.

[cad321]

@john3928

People replying that they have had different experiences is not gaslighting. People suggesting other possibilities to check is not gaslighting.

Couldn’t agree more. The only thing im seeing in the replies of this thread are users stating that their personal/1st hand experiences with REV aren’t what OP has experienced, or potentially helpful troubleshooting tips. Not that OP’s experience didn’t happen.

I genuinely believe its possible for a buisness as large, and with as many customers as REV, to have the occasional team experience fall throigh the cracks. That being said, i also believe that these experiences are outliers, and not “the norm” with REV…

[anon91718515]

Teams are of course free to use the parts they like and that’s entirely valid. The great thing about CD is that there is no greater pool of knowledgable and experienced people for this activity anywhere else in the world, and we are pretty good at bringing up issues and resolutions. I’m already seeing teams from around Minnesota offering to help in person and I think that’s great, but of course that’s up to each team how they want to interact with the rest of the FRC teams out there. I do hope that 2129 is able to find a solution that works for your team. On that note, I think it’s great that new motor and controller options are going to be legal and, apparently, available, for the 2024 game.

Because I see that other teams are looking at your experience and that of other teams to guide their choices, I will share my experience on motors.

Since 2020, we have used Falcons and NEOs in equal amount on our robots both in and out of season. Currently we have two active robots with swerve drive bases, one uses exclusively Falcons/Talons and the other runs on exclusively NEO/Spark Max. Since 2020 we have broken one full-size NEO motor case, burned out two NEO550 motors on our 2022 intake, and have broken one Falcon. We have had to do our own QC on all our Falcon motors multiple times and have never done QC work on NEOs. I have pre-ordered Kraken motors from WCP and plan to order Vortex motor combinations soon, based on when they become available. We will test them both and see which, if any, make it onto our 2024 robot(s). Hope this is a helpful data point for other teams.

Mr.N

[Dave1998]

@Ryan_Swanson

This doesn’t make a ton of sense to me. Why create a thread if you’re not looking to engage with it?

Sharing your experience with the community is still a valuable thing, and personally I appreciate the approach.

[Akash_Rastogi]

@Nathan2129 , I think the point here is either way, tons of people have had positive service experiences with Rev, including myself, even though I’ve said I am not a big fan of the old motors. I’d recommend your mentors ensure they reach out to Rev again and make sure the proper RMA procedures are followed. Luckily, nobody here is really disputing or invalidating your issues with these motors/controllers, just surprised at your service experience. I’d also suggest remaining open to trying their new products, I know I am.

FWIW I thought your team’s robot this year was sick, and I’m looking forward to seeing how you guys do next season, regardless of motors used.

[Nessie]

Cool robot name.