Hi Y’all,
I will repost this later in the 1339 Open Alliance blog but it seems appropriate to start this off separately, because OA covers so much and this is a specific area of concern for many teams right now.
PROBLEM:
Build season begins tomorrow, and we have a wider array of motor options (and categories of places to use them) than ever before. These motors vary widely in power, rotational speed, size, reliability, durability, control requirements, cost, and availability. Teams now have to begin deciding which motor(s) may be the right choice for them in their specific designs. Each team is different in terms of their budget, location (shipping can be a challenge), ordering cycle, and competitive goals.
So which motors should teams use for things like swerve drive, intake, elevator? My advice is only mine and you can disagree or have better information than me; I’d love to keep this open as game-specific stuff becomes clear, and as time reveals better and worse choices to us all.
I’m not including every legal FRC motor, there are lots that still exist that are very rarely used. I’m choosing to use some subjective-ish rating scales for some of my advice, like a “ranking” score on power. I recognize that this isn’t scientific, and you’re free to disagree or bring other relevant data to bear that I’m not considering.
MOTOR: CIM. There are other variants such as the MiniCIM (no longer produced) and the Venom motor and controller combination from Playing With Fusion.
CONTROLLER: Most or all legal motor controllers work with CIMs.
COST: $40 (without controller).
REPLACEABLE CONTROLLER? Yes.
POWER RANK: A distant 6th.
SPEED RANK: 5310 Free RPM; Moderate (easy to adapt to different uses).
MATURITY: Most Mature.
COMPATIBILITY: Has wide compatibility across multiple companies’ platforms.
AVAILABILITY: Always in stock. Many teams already have components.
BEST USES: Tank drive, intakes, shooters, superstructure, larger mechanisms.
WHERE NOT TO USE: Swerve drive (incompatible with many models), tight spaces, anywhere where weight is a concern.
KNOWN COMMON FAILURES: Brushes become worn over time.
ADDITIONAL NOTES: Almost all teams have experience with these, but the technology is outdated, overweight and underpowered. Probably the easiest option to use for low-resource teams. Don’t knock it.
OVERALL GRADE: C
MOTOR: NEO (1.0 OR 1.1).
CONTROLLER: SparkMAX.
COST: $138 (with controller).
REPLACEABLE CONTROLLER? Yes.
POWER RANK: 4th.
SPEED RANK: 5676 Free RPM; Moderate (easy to adapt to different uses).
MATURITY: Very Mature.
COMPATIBILITY: Has wide compatibility across multiple companies’ platforms.
AVAILABILITY: Commonly in stock. Many teams already have components.
BEST USES: Tank drive, swerve drive (propulsion and steering), intakes, shooters, superstructure, all mechanisms.
WHERE NOT TO USE: No recommendation.
KNOWN COMMON FAILURES: Encoder cable and JST connector.
ADDITIONAL NOTES: Many teams have enough experience to know how to use these, or how to help other teams use them. The “safest” fallback if other options don’t work out for whatever reason.
OVERALL GRADE: A-/B+
MOTOR: NEO Vortex.
CONTROLLER: Spark Flex (SparkMAX is also compatible).
COST: $185 (with controller).
REPLACEABLE CONTROLLER? Yes.
POWER RANK: 2nd.
SPEED RANK: 6784 Free RPM; High Moderate (easy to adapt to different uses).
MATURITY: Brand New.
COMPATIBILITY: TBD, but the variety of attachments for the through-bore make it likely to be adaptable to different companies’ product systems.
SOFTWARE: REV Hardware Client.
AVAILABILITY: Currently OOS. As a new product it is hard to predict how reliable stock will be, but REV has been forthcoming (and often accurate) with stock predictions, and is saying there will be plenty for teams this year.
BEST USES: Tank drive, swerve drive (propulsion and steering), intakes, shooters, superstructure, all mechanisms. Additional possible uses may arise due to the unusual configuration.
WHERE NOT TO USE: No recommendation.
KNOWN COMMON FAILURES: Unknown.
ADDITIONAL NOTES: 1339 has purchased four of these and is intending to use them for our mechanisms, assuming that testing goes as we expect.
OVERALL GRADE: Hoping for an A? We shall see…
MOTOR: NEO 550.
CONTROLLER: SparkMAX.
COST: $118 (with controller).
REPLACEABLE CONTROLLER? Yes.
POWER RANK: 7th.
SPEED RANK: 11000 Free RPM; High (requires gearing to be usable).
MATURITY: Mature.
COMPATIBILITY: Works well with both the REV ION and REV DUO product lines. Widely adaptable elsewhere due to the “550” shaft and bolt pattern. Not a CIM-style mounting pattern.
AVAILABILITY: Always in stock.
BEST USES: Swerve drive (steering only on the REV MAXSwerve and WCP Swerve XS modules; intakes, smaller mechanisms.
WHERE NOT TO USE: Swerve propulsion, large mechanisms such as elevators.
KNOWN COMMON FAILURES: We’ve burned out several when we pushed past the current limits, but we knew that was possible. The data cable is similar to the NEO 1.1/1.0.
ADDITIONAL NOTES: While the compact size and light weight are attractive, we have found limited uses for these, since we end up putting them on large stacks of planetary slices, which makes them use up similar space and weight to larger motors such as the NEO. They do best with the REV Ultraplanetary gearboxes.
OVERALL GRADE: C+/B-
MOTOR: Kraken.
CONTROLLER: Integrated TalonFX.
COST: $199 (with integrated controller).
REPLACEABLE CONTROLLER? Officially yes, but it requires that the motor be shipped out for repairs. So practically, not an easy swap.
POWER RANK: 1st.
SPEED RANK: 6000 Free RPM; High Moderate (easy to adapt).
MATURITY: Brand new motor, controller (from CTRE) is a carryover from the Falcon motor.
COMPATIBILITY: CIM mounting pattern, with a new spline shaft design that will sometimes require new components. Because it has just begun shipping (we are expecting our shipment next Tuesday), other companies such as SDS and REV are still designing and manufacturing compatible attachments. Expect these products to start entering the ecosystem in several weeks or a month. We are expecting our SDS modifications before the end of January.
AVAILABILITY: Currently in stock; shipments are on a rolling basis. WCP has an updated stock status page.
BEST USES: Swerve drive, tank drive, high power mechanisms such as elevators and shooters.
WHERE NOT TO USE: No recommendation.
KNOWN COMMON FAILURES: Unknown. Reports from teams that have used these motors in testing indicates that 10 AWG wire gauge is a minimum, and that the (FRC legal) 12 AWG is not sufficient. While 10 AWG is supplied by WCP with the motors, it is up to teams to use this correctly throughout their electrical system. I’m also not aware of any good solutions for using larger gauges (8 AWG) that work with our PDP/PDH or other required components.
ADDITIONAL NOTES: 1339 purchased enough of these to use in a swerve drive, but we are undecided about using them due to the very tight times we will need to meet for not only the motors but also the compatible components. I think that in general, we (FRC) are behaving like Icharus and are pushing suppliers like REV and WCP to make products that have more power than we really need, perhaps resulting in real problems for teams. Nevertheless I’m in the group within 1339 who want to try using these if possible. Another (larger) group wants to wait until next year to use them in competition. We will see what happens.
OVERALL GRADE: Hoping for an A?
MOTOR: Falcon.
CONTROLLER: Integrated TalonFX.
COST: $220 (with integrated controller).
REPLACEABLE CONTROLLER? No.
POWER RANK: 3rd.
SPEED RANK: 6380 Free RPM; High Moderate (easy to adapt).
MATURITY: Mature, BUT, has several major version with variant revisions.
COMPATIBILITY: CIM mounting pattern, with a spline shaft design that requires either its own components, or that the shaft be replaced with an 8mm CIM-style shaft. Many suppliers have components in stock that fit. Not a problem.
AVAILABILITY: Forever OOS into the future, usually OOS in the past. Not available as a default.
BEST USES: Swerve drive, tank drive, high power mechanisms such as elevators and shooters.
WHERE NOT TO USE: No recommendation.
KNOWN COMMON FAILURES: Too many to list, but we have found that by doing our own QC work and additional maintenance they can made reliable. With these caveats they make reliable drive motors. The exception (in my opinion) is the V3 model, which I do not recommend using for a number of practical reasons.
ADDITIONAL NOTES: 1339 purchased many of these motors in 2020 and 2021, and did a massive amount of maintenance and QC on them. In all likelihood these will be our drive base motors for the 2024 game. My personal issues with the Vex company are pretty well publicized elsewhere, and if I can advise a team not to buy additional products from them I will, but in this case the product isn’t available anyway, so it’s moot.
OVERALL GRADE: A-/D+ (depending on the context).
MOTOR: 775 Pro/Redline.
CONTROLLER: Most/all legal motor controllers.
COST: $22 (without controller).
REPLACEABLE CONTROLLER? Yes.
POWER RANK: Distant 5th.
SPEED RANK: 21020 Free RPM; very high (requires gearing).
MATURITY: Very mature.
COMPATIBILITY: Most companies have products that work with these motors, as they were common in the past.
AVAILABILITY: Always in stock.
BEST USES: Shooters and other fast mechanisms. Turn motors for the Swerve XS module from WCP.
WHERE NOT TO USE: Drive motors. Really this motor has been largely outclassed by brushless solutions for most applications.
KNOWN COMMON FAILURES: Burned out motors used to be common. These are air-cooled brushed motors and as such do not handle stall great without careful calculation and current limiting.
ADDITIONAL NOTES: It’s been refreshing to see WCP feature these as an option on the Swerve XS modules. Brushed motors are cheap and plentiful, and easy to control.
OVERALL GRADE: C+