New Chairman's Award Eligibility

I’m surprised that no one has posted about this.

Obtained from here.

This change is interesting to say the least. I’m curious as to what prompted it.

Ditto that. Anyone have a heads up on this? Or a reason why? I don’t recall ever being involved in a discussion or hearing a recommendation for this revision. It was my understanding that one of the reasons for establishing the HoF was to remove these teams from the very stiff competition for Chairman’s Awards. It is increasingly difficult (as you all know) to win a CA or RCA. There is no restriction on HoF teams to not perform well enough to earn a CA - in fact, we should be really obligated to do so even if it is not officially judged. So the point of this is totally lost on me.

Interesting as to why. But it sounds like an awesome challenge to live up to these great HoF teams who everyone will be competing against once again (hopefully most of them still enter for Chairmans) Should be awesome.

Koko Ed has talked about being an older HoF team a couple of times that I remember here in ChiefDelphi, regarding FRC 191, the X-Cats, and the HoF win(s).

My thinking is that so much time passes for the older HoF teams that the win can lose its edge and/or the value can become obscured for the current team members that were not around when that award was garnered.

I understand what Meredith is saying but we are working with teenagers who won’t necessarily make that connection. I think it could breathe new life into the teams involved in this change and give them the inspiration to go for it - again.

This is just an opinion, I don’t know what prompted the change, but I like that it presents new opportunities and possibilities for the teams involved and their fellow competitors.

Not to get too morbid but when an individual gets older, wins accolades, retires, gets the gold watch, and rides off into the sunset that is an expected lifecycle. The person dies, hopefully after a satisfying and productive life. A natural thing.

A team is not a person. It is an institution that is living breathing dynamic thing that evolves and adapts to new challenges and situations. It isn’t fair to the team or its benefactors that they get permanently ‘benched’.

Giving the team a 5 year break is a great idea. It is a good time to reflect and think about what they really want to achieve next and it will help motivate the troops when they get back in the game.

But in future they won’t actually be able to look forward to a 5 year break.
They’ll need to be performing at Chairman’s level several years in advance of their submission, just to have stuff to talk about.
So, before the last of the original freshmen are gone they’ll have to be hard at work again.

Would this mean that after 5 years they lose their automatic Championship eligibility status also? One thing that should be brought up is that with HoF status comes automatic eligibility for the CMP.

If they continue to compete… and they win… they are now double qualified and take up two of the qualifiers…eliminating some non-HoF team from qualifiying for nationals by winning a Regional CA.

I am not sure how I feel about that… but I guess its no different than one of the Hof teams qualifying as a Regional Winner and that has happened many times.

interesting

I understand why it was done, I think, but I don’t like it at all. No other sport requires a Hall of Fame member to “re-qualify”

That’s the purpose of a Hall of Fame. To stand forever as a representation of greatness. No re-qualifying needed. I think this kinda ruins the aspect of what FIRST has created with it’s Hall of Fame.

This seems like a step towards “What have you done for me lately?” kinda deal. I always assumed HoF teams have kept doing great things since they won and that was that. I liked it like that and I think it should have stayed that way.

Bob,

Unless FIRST misprinted their intentions, HOF teams can only win RCA, not CCA.

I’m curious why this wasn’t one of the issues that Bill has posed to the HOF teams over the last 4-5 months. I don’t really see a need for this rule to have changed.

It doesn’t say anything about re-qualifying. I think its really just to give teams an incentive again to keep doing what they did when they won the Championship chairman’s. These teams have so much to give that FIRST still wants them to keep giving and showing everyone else how its done.

I don’t get it.

One of the main reasons one would want to win the RCS is to have a shot at Championship Chairman’s in Atlanta. As these teams would have already won it, they’re inelgible there as far as I can tell (the rule doesn’t say anything about HoF status dropping / whatever), so this would mean that teams of “Hall of Fame quality” would be denied judgement at Championship because a Hall of Fame team beat them at a a regional.

I’m pretty sure no Hall of Fame teams stop outreaching to the communty and in general beign Chairman’s-calbier just because they’ve already won it for life, and none of them are only motivated to do such actions because they could win a trophy if they do but otherwise don’t see the point.

If I understand it correctly, this could give teams like mine, who don’t submit at regionals with Hall of Fame teams at them (as far as I know, sorry if I missed one), a much better shot at the national title than teams from regions with national winners. I don’t think that’s really fair.

I have a question for CCA teams: Would you resubmit for Regional Chairman’s?

Correct me if I am wrong but HoF teams are required to submit a Chairman’s Award document every year despite being ineligible to win anything for it. Barring that, teams the win CCA don’t do it for the award, that is basically an unexpected perk. I’m sure that many teams know full well they never have a realistic chance at HoF status yet they still do good stuff.

As for the claims it is unfair, so is capitalism. Last I checked 90% of us lived in a country that reveres capitalism. If you want to complain about FRC, “OH NOES! Team XYZ has a budget that is 2x mine whatever will I do?” Try going into the business world and competing against someone with 150x your budget and 200x your size. Consider it good training. (And all you HoF teams, you now have a big target on your back, I hope I’m not the only one coming to beat you)

Really though, the decision has been made and whether I agree with it or not is irrelevant, I just hope that FIRST will bestow some of its wisdom on us so that we mere mortals can hope to understand why it was made.

Just because life and FIRST isn’t supposed to be fair doesn’t mean some attributes of fairness aren’t ideal. I know life isn’t fair, FIRST isn’t supposed to be fair, yeah yeah.

Consider this situation (which is a very real possibility next year when 67 becomes elgible again and 51 is at the same event, taking 2 of 3 Michigan RCAs potentially). Say Team A is a Hall of Fame team. Team B, who is just a step behind Team A, but almost as good and better than every other non RCA team in the country, loses to Team A at a regional. Team C, who is worse than Team A and B but still very good, is good enough to win an RCA at a separate event. Team C could enter the Hall of Fame when Team B is better.

I just don’t see the reason or positive impact that allowing old Hall of Famers to win regional chairman’s again will have. Please tell me what I’m missing here.

I didn’t mean they have to officially “re-qualify” it just seems like that’s what we are making them do by having them submit for the chance to win the award. What do the other teams that are in the HoF think about themselves when a year ago, they were all on the same level, Championship Chairman’s Award Winners and HoF members. Now one of them wins? Are they above the rest now?

This just doesn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense.:confused:

This was true through 2008 but was not required for the 2009 season, I believe.

  1. I don’t like the new criteria.
  2. I don’t like it because the reasoning hasn’t been explained.
  3. I agree with Andrew about the HoF teams having to submit without getting anything.
  4. This (#3) may be why there’s a possible return to RCA eligibility.
  5. The sooner somebody explains why, the happier I’ll be about this.

It’s not that I think it’s a bad idea (which I’m still unsure about), it’s that I want to know why this is going to be the case.

That would be like saying that Team A competed at a regional with 67,217,and 68 and lost despite being (in theory) just slightly less capable than those teams. Then having Team B which competed against 30 rookies and is, itself, only slightly worse than Team A. It would mean that Team B has a chance of qualifying for Atlanta over Team A who has a better robot (in this example) Team B could win the Championship when Team A is better.

Additionally, Team A is potentially mentally deficient in your example, I mean that in the most offensive way possible, if you see a team that has won RCA the last 6 years in a row competing at one competition and not at another (assuming you do two competitions and HAVE this choice) the only logical solution is to not submit it there. If you don’t have that choice, then you should find a way to get that choice. Who knows, it might even give you a better chance of winning an RCA.

This sounds like a familiar concept, let us make sure everyone is equal. Competition is a GOOD thing, the stiffer competition you face the better you will be. My one regret from 2008? I never got to play against 1114. In your example Team A needs to grow up and BEAT 67/51.

I understand your concerns but I honestly don’t think that giving teams more competition is a BAD thing.

I agree. I just think they are kinda ruining what the HoF and winning Championship Chairman’s is supposed to mean.

While I sympathize that teams in the HoF find themselves blackballed when it comes to culture changing awards, I do not think that this change is for the better.

Every year, the number of deserving RCA and CCA teams is growing far faster than the number of RCAs (a couple new regionals per year) and CCAs (a constant, one) given out. Putting even more deserving teams back into the pool just dilutes everyone’s chances that much more. At older regionals, fantastic teams that have been of an RCA caliber for years already find themselves many spots down the pecking order simply because some others have been doing it longer. These teams now find themselves even further down the list.

It’s been awhile since I’ve been a part of this discussion directly (I’ve now spent more time with 1712 than with 103), but I was once part of some conversations with people like Ed and reps from other hall of fame teams about these types of rules. I’ll qualify by saying that these convos were largely informal, but I do know that these comments/ideas were reaching FIRST HQ staff/management as far back as fall 2004/spring 2005 so it doesn’t surprise me to see it in the rules.

The one thing that seemed easy to agree upon (in those informal conversations) was the notion that, as time went by and students graduated, students lost an understanding what the CA is all about without the new students being able to go through the process - particularly the interview. I’m glad for those students on those teams that will now again be able to participate in a process they weren’t able to before.

However, when you weigh out the whole eligibility thing, what other qualification spots you might be “taking away” from others, etc - it gets a little muddy in my mind. Maybe some clarification will be forthcoming, but if I were to list questions, the list would go like this (yes, I have an idea what I think some of these answers would be, but I don’t want to assume anything here):

  1. If I’m a HofF team do I retain my automatic lifetime invite to the Championship?
  2. If I’m a HofF team who won CCA more than five years ago, I still have my automatic bid to the CMP, and I win RCA this year, am I “taking away” a Championship CA opportunity from another (albeit nameless) team?
  3. If I’m a HofF team and I win RCA, can I compete for the CCA?
  4. As a HofF team who is eligible to compete for RCA (and if I still get my automatic CMP bid), am I expected to do the HofF display work and staff it in addition to the “regular” CA work we do during the year?