Yes, but only after teams in their quest to get more traction created 8 wheel designs, after IFI specifically gave them skyway’s to put in front…
Hear, hear. Let’s reward the folks who produce things that we like by buying their products!
Actually they smell like rubber conveyor belting, with faint hints of adhesive. But I can confirm that their design carries the talented Mr. Vielkind-Neun’s fingerprints.
Earlier today, I was lucky enough to see and handle the 4" and 6" IFI wheels shown at the link that started this thread. JVN brought them to the Pilot FVC event at St. Louis, and was nice enough to let interested people preview this soon-to-be-released IFI product.
I want some!
I’m a member of the small but mighty “I think FIRST is getting too easy” club but I can’t say I would really mind these showing up in the KOP. Shiny metal with grippy tread vs dull plastic with slick tread;no real contest there. 
Two supporting facts towards my “these will be included in the KOP” theory:
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There is no proposed price on the IFI website. If they had a interest in selling them seperate from the kitbot, they would probably try and give teams a taste of the price, and get them out before build so teams can give them a test drive.
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AndyMark has a traction wheel out. No, I don’t think the indiana mafia is telling IFI they can’t sell wheels, but IFI would have a better interest in including the 6" or 4" wheels, then selling separately the kind they don’t include. As most teams used at least part of the kitbot this year, it would certainly mean lots of teams would buy spares.
But who knows. Maybe John and the gang over at IFI have finished that whole “waterproofing the electronics thing” and wheels won’t be needed!
I don’t think that these (neccessarily) indicate anything about the game, but a lot of successful teams have used similar (although frequently milled) wheels, indeed, our team never even considered using the KOP wheels before, so this would make it easier for a beginning team.
However, having used the identical tread material before, I can attest that it wears out rather quickly, I hope they make it easy to change.
I would tend to disagree with the running trend in this thread. I don’t believe these wheels will be in the kit of parts for several circumstantial reasons.
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If they were going to be in the kit, Why would IFI release them now? Did they release the kitbot chassis last December? Did they release the Kitbot Transmission last December? definitely not. Mind you, releasing the kitbotwould have given away details about certain rule changes(size constraints, 4 CIM’s). Releasing these now only gives away the fact that wheels will be useful in next years game. Wow, who could have predicted that?
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Different sizes - The fact that they offer different sizes at all tells me that they are intended to give teams options… and if there were in the kit of parts, teams would be stuck with whatever size they gave out.
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Cost - I’d estimate that these wheels are going to retail for somewhere in the range of about $50 usd based on other competitive prices(AM). So say for arguments sake, say they cost IFI $30 to make.
So $30 x 4 wheels x ~1000 teams = A LOT of $$$$
And the reality is, a lot of teams just aren’t going to use them. And that means wasted money for FIRST, and higher registration fee’s for us.
So, in my opinion, these will not be in the KOP… and just aftermarket products(darn good ones at that). I could definitely see IFI going more indepth into the aftermarket robot component business. After all, a little friendly competition between companies is good for the customer. Helps keep costs down, and quality up.
I definitely agree with the question of IFI releasing them early, but there obviously is some market interest with the different sized wheels. I have to disagree with the argument of increased costs causing FIRST not to include them. Exhibit A: The kit bot itself. The material in the frame itself has over 1000 square inches of 1/8 aluminum in it, whereas a 6" wheel probably has like 100 square inches of 1/8. so, with two wheels included, that less than 1/5 of the kit bot material. They could probably use scraps!
That notwithstanding, they probably don’t actually cost 30 bucks to make ( I know you were just using an example…but I’m in a number mood.) At a high price, which IFI probably won’t have in bulk, 1/8" aluminum costs like 9.7 cents a square inch. .097*100=$9.70. Add in 7 dollars for two good 1/2" bearings, and the total is 15.70. I don’t know how much wedgetop costs, but lets say 3 bucks to cover a wheel. Add in a bit of hardware and we’re still only at 20 bucks. Thats as much as we paid for a spare side rail.
So, assuming IFI only gives us two, with two skyways in front, thats 40 bucks added onto the cost, minus whatever the skyway’s cost FIRST. Sounds like a good deal to me for what you would get out of it by helping teams out!
yeah, it sounds like a good deal… until you multiply by 1,000 :rolleyes:
Yeah, but remember, whatever is in the KOP is multiplied by a thousand.
Last year alone:
$150 for the CMU
$300 for two gearboxes (estimation)
$100 for the kit frame
+____________________
$550 added on by FIRST to the cost of the kit. At least. So, $40, which would be a 7.2% increase in the kitbot’s cost this year, sounds like a walk in the park to me compared to last years increase, for a rather needed improvement to the kitbot. It is a fact that we’ll be getting the kitbot in the future; there was simply too much much put into it all (gearbox especially) for FIRST to throw it away. However, we may get it in a slightly modified form. And really, if something is going to be around for awhile, wouldn’t IFI try and improve upon it? I really*, really* hate accounting, but the numbers tell the whole story.
They also have a use as just a hub. A team can experiment with different coverings if First throws a weird surface at us.
As an aside, those items almost certainly cost less. Im not sure about the CMU cam, since they may have had to pay for them all, and didn’t get them donated, but it surely can’t cost $300 for the transmissions and $100 for the frame, because IFI wouldn’t be selling them at cost to us as aftermarket parts.
I can’t see this ending up as a positive if they’re put in the kit. If Team A gets 4" wheels, they’ll complain since they want 6". If Team B gets 6" wheels, they’ll complain that they wanted 4". Team C will complain that they wanted the 1/2" bore, not 3/8" Team D will complain that there’s only two of them. Team E will complain that their robot can’t turn because of IFI.
If these were “one size fits all”, I could see them sending them out in the kit, but why send out a wheel that has so many different options? 4" 6" 8" roughtop or wedgetop 3/8" or 1/2" bore. 1" 1.5" or 2" width.
Why?
So if they send out 8’’ wheels in the KOP and you want a low center of gravity you will go out and buy their 6’’ or 4’’ wheels.
Teams complain about everything (We want 4 wheel drive! The chassis is flimsy! etc. etc.). How would this be new?
Why do they send out any wheels at all in the KOP? And yet, they still do each year. Every KOP gets the same type of wheel, and, if going by last year’s example, you can pop then on the kitbot frame and have a working drivetrain. If teams don’t like it, they go make their own or buy different versions, just like it’s always been with Skyway. Again, how would this be new?
That said, the thought of an ordering system a la pneumatic cylinders crossed my mind, but if these end up in the KOP, I just expect everyone to get the same 2 or 4 wheels. And if we don’t, I’m still getting them.
As has been said above, noone will complain more than about anything else, and if they do, as usual, they can shove it in their pie holes. The fact is, First just has to say, the frame takes 3/8" standard. So thats what you get. The skyways are 6" wheels, so you get six inch wheels. We think wedgetop wears better ( just an example!), so you get wedgetop. End of story. If you want something different, get it yourself, or buy it from us.
And the costs lower, but still close to as high for the kit bot as I said. At IFI,
http://www.ifirobotics.com/kitbot.shtml, the price for the kitbot frame is $190.
Revision 1, the frame should cost IFI $95 to make. I was a little high.
I was however, astronomically high for the gearboxes. IFI retails 'em for $150, so they’re prolly about 60-80 dollars to make. Should’ve done my homework there dang’it. Sooo…a revision is in order.
$150 for the CMU
$150 for two gearboxes (estimation)
$ 95for the kit frame
+____________________
$395 added on by FIRST to the cost of the kit. At least. So, $40, which would be a 10.13% increase in the kitbot’s cost this year still seems like a walk in the park. My argument remains:IFI will try to improve their platform in the kit this year. The wheels are where to start.
All,
Yes, I designed them.
IFI will begin selling mechanical products for the 2006 FIRST season. These wheels & aluminum sprockets will be one of our flagship products.
We will be posting them for sale, ASAP. Definitely before Christmas.
There will also be more details posted shortly including weight, cost, & CAD drawings.
Non-Quantitative Answer:
(They are light as a feather, and strong as a brick.)
The tread is riveted in place with 1/8" aluminum rivets or held on with screws (no hardware for attaching tread is included). This is the same method used by 229 (and many other teams) in the 2005 season.
Each of the side plates extendes beyond the wheel-rim a small amount (.08") to provide reinforcement against side-loads on the tread.
#35 Aluminum sprockets will be 1/8" thick, in a variety of tooth counts (ranging from 22 to 96).
The contents of the 2006 kit will not be released until January 7th. No information can be released until that date.
“This is how we roll…” 
-JV
Continuing the trend of reading way too far into anything posted by someone who may or may not have insider info…
Clearly John is trying to say IFI will be producing Omni wheels :rolleyes:
A set o’ wheels for Christmas! What a nice present for any team to receive!
Is it just me or does anyone else see IFI eventually turnining into an all-out robot parts supplier with motors, gearboxes, drive components, etc sort of like RobotMarketplace (robotcombat.com)? That would be awesome!
Ha, I have the sinking feeling that I lose this debate, regardless of my argument…:rolleyes: Still, I look forward to being able to have some more robotics suppliers dedicated mostly to FIRST.
This isn’t battlebots (robotcombat.com), but I love these new wheels, you have less chances of tiping over too since it’s so wide.