New Game Criticism

FIRST General Forum
#68

Likes
Easy to explain without having to show people the animation
Teams don’t all use the same exact wheels
the field isn’t flat
Ranking can’t be relied upon as much during alliance suggestions
robots look strange (yes, this is a good thing)
requires different ways of thinking to succeed

Dislikes
scoring in auto doesn’t give extra points
The struggle to maintain as small a lead as possible could be stressful
not enough expansion ( I miss robots like swampthing from 2003, 71 from 2002, any robot that didn’t start with its wheels on the ground basically)

#69

Wow! That’s really neat Andrew. Interestingly, a below the radar team (175) had the highest cumulative score, while other favorites (121 & 20) didn’t even make the top 8! Just basing off my memory (I can’t seem to find last years scouting data) it seems that instead of the top 8 consisting of good and exceptionally lucky teams, there are more average robots in the top, with the good ones down farther in the rankings. I assume the GDC is hoping this will even out alliance goodness to make for more exciting eliminations. Regardless, it makes for a very interesting ranking system. I’m anxious to see it play out. :slight_smile:

#70

Not sure about the new ranking system.

Look at section 9.3.4 and 9.3.5 of the manual and consider the following match

Winning alliance scores 3 points and is penalized 2 points
Losing alliance scores 0 points

Final results will be

WINNING ALLIANCE
Seed points 1
Coopertition pts 0
Total 1

LOSING ALLIANCE
Seed points 3
Coop points 0
Total 3

So, the losing team scoring zero points gets more points than the winning alliance? That doesn’t seem right. Or am I missing something?

#71

My biggest complaint this year isn’t the game itself, it’s the rules. With the way the size and ball interaction rules are written, many simple, elegant solutions are taken of the picture, leaving only the difficult and complex solutions. This in and of itself runs contrary to the basic idea of engineering, KISS. (Keep it Simple and Stupid). FIRST seems to have undermined their own goals a little bit here.

#72

You aren’t missing anything there. But, let’s change the scenario slightly. Winning scores 3, penalized 2. Loser scores 1, penalized 1.
Winner: 1 seed, 2 Coop, 3 total
Loser: 3 seed, 0 coop, 3 total.

All you have to do is make sure that there is not a shutout due to scoring capability, and you come out at least even, if not ahead.

#73

My team has had a huge discussion about the seeding scoring, and we think it works like this:

First note: Losing alliance gets NO coopertition bonus.

Alliance A (the winning alliance) gets their raw score minus any penalties plus double alliance B’s raw score.

A_final = A_raw - A_penalties + 2*B_raw

Alliance B gets alliance A’s raw score.

B_final = A_raw

With this method, the winning alliance always gets more points (logical), yet close games and not blowing out opponents are encouraged.

To the rest of the game:

Likes: Strategy, easier to understand, many kinds of bots, importance of different scoring types

Dislike: The seeding system! And the complicated nature of a lot of the rules (2 second time limits, same position relative to the robot, etc); they will be hard to keep track of mid-game.

#74

I am more optimistic about this game than I have been about any FIRST game at this point with the possible exception of 2006. This game has flying balls, hanging robots, and non-flat surfaces - all things that add to the “wow” factor. At kickoff, the speakers put it best - football is so popular not because of the 11 men on the field, but because of the 60,000+ people who will pay good money to watch the game. For FRC to experience similar success, you need games that outsiders will find fun to watch. Mission accomplished, IMHO.

To those complaining about seeding points and overall robot restrictions: On the former point, I’d say wait and see. I don’t think things will be as dismal as you may seem to think. On the latter point, we are essentially playing soccer. One of the key rules of soccer is that you can’t manipulate the ball with your hands (e.g. above the bumper zone), and that there is no way to completely possess a ball. Otherwise, the game turns into rugby or football - a big scrumfest. Personally, I had enough scrumming last year.

#75

Personally, my oppinion on the game is a little indifferent. This is because it fits my team perfectly in that the game has various distinct tasks which can be accomplished with different subsystems that do not interact with each other (we have a very large team, so a game like that is best). I dislike how we still have restricted expansion rules and how we have to stay low to the ground when manupulating the ball.

I ABSOLUTELY HATE THE SEEDING SYSTEM THOUGH!!!

#76

Likes:

-The 45 degree bump + the 1/2" from the carpet to the bump- I really want to see how many teams choose between going under the tower v over the bump.

  • Easy to tell who is winning the game
    -Less human player scoring
    -Higher chance of scoring during auton (especially without interference.

Dislikes:

-The idea of hanging on the tower
-The feeling that a lot of robots have a higher chance of breaking from other robots “kicking” the ball or falling off of the tower and the safety of it all.

#77

This is going to sound a little stupid, but another complaint of mine is that it is going to be extremely hard to make a good looking robot. You can’t match the bumpers with the rest of your robot, and the fact that the bumpers are 10-16" off of the ground. Not to mention the whole hight thing.

Any thoughts on how to make a nice looking robot?

#78

Coopertition points are a part of Seeding Points, so the above interpretation is correct. It reminds me of seeds in 2000 / 2002?

#79

9.3.5 CoopertitionTM Bonus
All teams on the winning ALLIANCE will receive a coopertition bonus: a number of seeding points equal to twice the un-penalized score (the score without any assessed penalties) of the losing ALLIANCE.
In the case of a tie, all participating teams will receive a coopertition bonus of a number of seeding points equal to twice their ALLIANCE score (with any assessed penalties).

Andrew- read through 9.3.5 again…the way I read it is that Coopertition is a bonus of SEEDING POINTS and thus factored into your seeding score.

#80

I think one of the big differences is that these “rankings” would punish teams that were very good at avoiding being scored upon. In last year’s game, there was a definite advantage to teams that could outrun and avoid other robots, so a team like 121 that rarely ever had more than a handful of balls in its trailer would get correspondingly fewer Coopertition Points. All that being said, it was a totally different game, and that wasn’t a concern for drivers and coaches last year.

#81

Thanks guys, misread that rule. I deleted the post so as to avoid confusion. (Why I shouldn’t make a post as I am running out the door to class…)

#82

Andrew- when you applied the rankings to last year’s competitions…did you make the same mistake? I posted a thread with my results and some are considerably different than yours.

#83

Mhm, you want to provide a link to your results here or should I just rerun the numbers?

#84

Here you go.

#85

I think the overall game is a great game. I love the fact that the GDC put an emphasis on simplicity in the robots. I’m a 4x4 truck guy, and the bumps in the field are exciting to me. I’m looking forward to those that overcome the center of gravity question that comes with creating a high-profile vehicle. It almost seems that drivetrains will be a key part of this years robot. Good luck to all!

#86

I must say, I rather like the way the game will go as teams with simpler robots may very well be better off than those with more complicated robots only from the strategic concepts of the game. I also think it may pull out some of the most innovative ways to sidestep some of the obstacles. I’m not so fond of some of the coopertition rules (what happened to being able to being understood by humans?) but it does throw in a bit more strategy to it.

Oh, and as a fan of pinball, I rather like the rails as the way to reintroduce the balls to the field. :slight_smile:

#87