I noticed a few robots have appendages that obscure the team number when the appendage is in use.They range from a thin bridge arm that splits the number to a full ball collector as wide as the bot. Legal or not? I really don’t know but my gut says illegal based on the number of bots that did not block the view of the number or am i getting into that shaddy area of rule intent.
Only rule I can find relevant to this is R35, which according to my interpretation, requires that a robot be able to be clearly identified from 100ft away. If a robot can still be identified from that distance, even with a blocked number (appendage) then the rule is met, IMO.
[R35]
Teams shall display their team number on the Bumpers in four locations at approximately 90° intervals around the perimeter of the Robot. The numerals must be at least 4 in. high, at least ¾ in. in stroke width, and be either white in color or outlined in white. Team numbers must be clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 ft, so that judges, referees, and announcers can easily identify competing Robots.
Then if you look in the Q&A you’ll find this:
A. Per [R35], team numbers must be clearly visible. This means that they may not be inverted, obscured, fragmented, upside down, etc. Bumpers that wrap around a corner are likely to be considered fragmented and not able to be seen in their entirety.
According that the GDC’s interpretation, if the numbers are obscured, you’re not in compliance with R35?
Seems like there’s the common sense interpretation of this rule and the literal interpretation of the rule. Maybe someone should ask in the Q&A?
If you’re unsure, put your team number up on the robot somewhere as well! That way, when the bumpers are obscured by your manipulator, the number is still visible just above them.
Jon, that doesn’t solve the obscured number rule. You could almost read the rules as the only place you can have team numbers is on the bumpers this year. I said almost.
As far as the bumpers go, they’re pretty picky about the numbers and how many times you’re allowed to have them.
A. Rule [R35] requires that the team number be displayed in four locations, no more or fewer.
Seems like having the number elsewhere would solve the issue of it being blocked by an appendage, though you’d still technically be in violation of R35.
Look at it from the intent/spirit of the rules. There’s nothing ruling against having an appendage that covers your bumper - in fact, such an appendage is pretty much necessary to manipulate the bridge, which is part of the game design. If that covers your team number on that side, its still visible on the bumpers on the other sides.
As for R35, the GDC is really going for readability. As a thought experiment, lets imagine the GDC hasn’t been as picky about the numbers as they have been. You get to competition and teams 20 and 2020 are both there. Team 20 decided they wanted to display their number on both sides of their ball gatherer so its equally visible from multiple angles and for aesthetics, especially if a manipulator is lowered between them. Team 2020 decided they wanted to split their number on both sides of their ball gatherer, so it wasn’t squished on one side, and for aesthetics. Now, looking at the front of the robot, the team numbers look identical - 20 on the left, and 20 on the right. How do the refs or scouters know which is which at a brief glance?
The whole intent of the bumper team number rules is to ensure that the numbers are readable and teams won’t be confused. It helps the refs on the field, it helps the scouters in the stands, and it helps the friends/family that come to cheer your robot on.
If you have an appendage that blocks your team number on one side of the robot, and you know that appendage is going to be deployed most of the match, you’ll likely want to put your team number above the bumpers on the robot somewhere - R35, and the GDC’s quoting it in the Q&A should only apply to bumpers, not to what’s displayed on the robot - anything displayed on the robot is a non-functional decoration, and the only real limits on those are that it can’t interfere with other teams vision detection…
A test for me would be the answer to this question. “How long does your appendage cover the numbers on your bumper?” If the answer is ‘most of the match’, ‘the entire match’ or ‘as soon as auto starts’ I would think you have crossed into the “obscured” definition. If the answer is ‘only when we are picking up a ball’ then I would think that prudence suggests that you are not obscuring the number.
What do you say to a team that built their bot so that the bumper numbers are clearly visible during the whole match and they lose to a team that has a harvester down the whole match obscuring the team number? Maybe i’m reading to much into this but i feel this might cause some anguish at comps this year.
I know past years rules do not apply to the current game. But the combination of appendage & locomotion game piece would obscure the number on our bumper. Nothing was ever said. of it.
I do not think the inspectors will make an issue unless it was obvious that obscure to the number was the intent. Just who was that masked robot anyway?
Devils advocate- " Head ref, head ref!!! I know we just got beat in the finals but according to Q&A that teams bumpers were obscured during the match."
From the inspector standpoint, we check the bumpers for compliance and then check for appendage projection. We do not inspect for how the robot acts on the field. If the head ref calls us to check on something that he/she sees during repeated matches we will report back our findings and then make a decision. The head ref, LRI and FTA discuss items throughout the weekend and when needed will come to a consensus or call for a better decision. We each have appropriate phone numbers, one of which is the head guy. LRIs have my phone number.
Q. Can the bumpers be covered at any point by a dynamic appendage on the robot?
A. There are no rules prohibiting this.
from early on in build season
Q. Can the bumpers be covered at any point by a dynamic appendage on the robot?
A. There are no rules prohibiting this.
I guese someone would have to ask if team numbers on bumpers…but nobody will, alittle late in the season.
Is it just me or is this bumper rule stuff getting a tad ridiculous. I know people want to see our team number but come on this is crazy there is more engineering going into the bumpers than the robot…
In a lot of engineering projects, you spend more time working on the “boring” specs the customer wants, instead of the “fun” aspects of the project. When designing a new car, not everyone can work on designing the engine. You still need to design the door handles, trunk latches, and all the other small, boring parts that are in a car.
And a crazy ton of effort goes into car bumpers. Between FMVSS standards, and the implications with regards to crash, energy transfer, Insurance ratings, air bag impact sensors, airflow, styling, license plate brackets, fit and finsh, getting paint to match and faid at the same rate, pedestrian impact, low speed impact (Canadian, European, and US standards), moderate speed impact, high speed impact, manufacturability, materials, thermal expansion effects… Bumpers have come a long way, and are designed to do a lot more than people often realize.
Whatever realworld effort is going into bumper design, the only chance we get to shine is with changing them red for blue and attachment to a robot frame. If FIRST were to entertain some engineering-like requests for bumper design from us, THAT might be un-boring. I mean, a case of Great Stuff in a ripstop nylon sack? Or design a game during which the required on-board accelerometer (from air bags?) registers a minimum value because that robot’s bumper is so good at absorbing collision energy. A demolition derby-style game sure would have crowd appeal, not to mention that most of the teams’ kids really only want to build a battlebot anyways. And I KNOW when this will happen too. The year I get to the pool supply store in September for their pool-noodle closeout, buy a bunch, will be the big bumper innovation year for FIRST. Yahooooooooo! Can’t wait.
As a likely “guilty party” in this discussion, I would be disappointed to see our entire appendage (or anybody else’s) banned because it partially obscured one of four sets of team numbers for the portions of the match when it was deployed. That would effectively ban appendages from deploying anywhere near the bumper zone. Almost any appendage that is able to manipulate the bridge will obscure somebody’s view of the bumper numbers at some point. This was never an issue with the large roller claws in Logomotion, and I expect that there will be a lot of obscured team numbers this year as well.
Maybe this would be a good time to start a 3 second rule or is it 5 seconds in the key in basketball. Not saying a ref would look for it specifically but if they notice a bumper obscured they could point at bot and count to five. Guess they would have to come up with a penalty too.
No, no, no…
Let’s stop and think about the spirit of this rule. The goal of the rule is for easy identification of your robot on the field. Was this rule intended to create a specific design constraint? No. It’s intended to ensure that all bumpers have numbering that is easy to read. Is anyone going to exploit this as a strategy to get more points? No.
If you have an appendage that stays down during the entire match, it’s appropriate to put the number where it won’t be obscured - and I think most teams will do that naturally. If you’ve got something like this, then you do what you can and don’t worry about it.
But please, let’s not start talking about penalties and countdowns. The next thing you know, we’ll be arguing about whether the GDC should require a certain buffer space for team numbers, so that 4-digit teams are not at a disadvantage to 2-digit teams. Or what happens if two robots get into a pushing contest, and one of their numbers is obscured? Who gets penalized? Is this where [G44] applies?