[OFF] 2019 Off-season Fantasy First League

OFF (Off-season Fantasy First) was created in 2018 as a way to both get new players interested in SLFF (Season Long Fantasy First) and to let those who just want to draft their favorite events to do so easily.

OFF follows the SLFF rule set with modifications that are being used and tested out for the upcoming SLFF 2020 season.

To sign up, post in one of the draft threads with your Chief Delphi name in the list. Once we move to discord (hopefully temporarily) you will need to join the SLFF discord to draft.


Items of note that have changed from the 2019 rules:

  • You cannot trade pick slots.
  • Once the automated draft runner is in place, there will be no tiered drafts, until then tiers will exist
  • Drafts will be run on Chief Delphi as much as possible. A new automatic draft runner is under construction and some/many drafts will be run on the SLFF discord, with the results posted on Chief Delphi after the fact.
  • Hopefully we get to incorporating the auto runner with the Discourse API, and linked up to Chief Delphi, thus having drafts once again being run on Chief Delphi.

OFF scoring has been modified to mitigate draft position in OFF, the document explaining all the scoring can be found here.

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Leaderboard: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oFTCZ-mN44LLf5jAZjJwJwJr8mQwaD3lrIYtbbLtPtY/edit#gid=0

Updated Leaderboard: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1X8VZQInqpF2OdIE1X6IYKApZC6b3vBCtjMcBuEMAukY/edit#gid=1771496829

Hey everyone, OFF is moving to a server of its own so that drafts can be run there (soon™) till we get full on auto CD abilities and to provide more OFF-specific communications, as well as the good general social chats and whatnot. Check it out! Draft runner development/comments/support will also be here, so if you are interested in that join up. https://discord.gg/kr2aYbC

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Is OFF moving off CD? If so, why?

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Good question!

Nope, staying on CD. We may have a few drafts that are discord only to test auto-running before that auto-running function comes to CD minimizing the amount of downtime off CD is the goal so that it can be fully automatic for an SLFF solution. All results will always be posted to CD.

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Hey, isn’t one of the core goals of OFF to increase the visibility of FF to the FRC community at large? I’m concerned that adding this barrier to participate in drafts and reducing their visibility will hurt engagement with potential new FF players.

I’m a big fan of data-driven decision-making, so here’s a poll for anyone reading. Please choose the option that best fits your viewpoint.

  • I’ve already participated in OFF/SLFF
  • I would be more likely to try OFF on CD
  • I would be more likely to try OFF on an OFF Discord Server
  • I would try either way
  • I wouldn’t try either way

0 voters

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We may have a few drafts that are discord only to test auto-running

Will these drafts be factored in to the leaderboard, or will the CD drafts only count for that?

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That’s a to be determined at this point. I think we will need to have a good discussion on that one and see what the OFF community thinks is the best. There are a few options to explore with that, and that conversation may as well start now.

Can we just keep drafts on CD so that new people can participate? And so we don’t have to join yet another fantasy FIRST discord.

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I’ve created a proposal to aid the discussion about drafting platforms.

Signups and results for drafts must both be posted to Chief Delphi in order to increase visibility for the league and Fantasy FIRST as a whole. Then, when people sign up, they can indicate whether or not they prefer drafting on Chief Delphi or Discord. If a majority sways either way, that medium is where the draft will be hosted. If it’s a fairly even split, the draft’s tiers will be determined by who voted for which option and everyone would draft on their preferred medium.

Any comments, questions, or concerns would be appreciated.

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Concerns:

  • As best I can tell from perusing the draft runner code there’s no added discord specific functionality, what exactly is the point of running drafts on discord?
  • If we ARE running drafts on discord why not use the main SLFF discord? Having a separate discord just for OFF seems entirely superfluous.
  • Forcing first-time drafters who stumble onto a draft on Chief to switch platforms to play seems like an unnecessary barrier to entry.
  • It seems like this proposal is using OFF participation score as leverage to get people to join some new server. I’m very uncomfortable with this.

I’ll edit if I come up with more concerns, but those are my initial thoughts.

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I share all of these concerns

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Thirded on all counts.

I would like to hear more about the additional reasoning that would make such a move necessary or even beneficial. If the primary goal here is automated drafting ASAP, I think creating a brand new discord does absolutely nothing to advance that objective.

Thanks to everyone who brought up concerns, it’s good to have a discussion.

The drafts would only be potentially run on there when the code is ready for testing. Currently there is no code for discord compatibility, this is something that could happen shortly in an attempt to have fully automated drafts, which makes running the league significantly easier. Similarly this has been the goal with both the original attempt of the draft runner (led by Yourself, Brian, Justin, Jordan, and I) and that project never even attempted a manual version, and only used a fully discord method with the full intent to make it CD compatible once a stable discord draft runner could be made. You can see that the OP of this thread clearly mentions this.

So it seems that the entire opposition is that it’s on a different discord than originally planned, rather than other reasons.

Unfortunately I’ve been put in an awkward position where my strong feelings on the way that the server has been run, and the individuals who are running it have been at odds a large amount. As such i’m at a crossroads when it comes to this issue, where after three weeks of concerned parties attempting to resolve the issues at hand, it hasn’t been done from the POV of either side.

This puts me in a sticky situation, and I have 3 options.

  1. Support a server that some of the leadership has gone out of it’s way to wrong me, and those close to me.
  2. Stop contributing to the FF community.
  3. Help make a server with others looking for positive change in the culture of FF, and continue to contribute to the community to make it a better place.

In my opinion the OFF server adds a lot of value, and I think that the many people who have joined can and do see that value. My goal is always to provide extra value to the community, while still staying true to myself.

Two things, Danny’s proposition mostly removes this issue, and I think it’s a very good compromise.

The other thing that was brought up by a couple people in the community is that there are several people that know of individuals that don’t want to draft explicitly because it’s on CD. In an ideal world both platforms are supported by automatic running, and both platforms are used as per preferences of the individual. I don’t see how having both platforms in use as soon as the discord version is ready to be tested can be a bad thing. It lowers the barrier rather than increasing it.

Reading yours (and QD’s) concerns loud and clear. I think the solution proposed does a good job of addressing those concerns to the best of my ability.

Discord is the easiest way for me to create an automated solution, as it’s what I have the most experience in making. Automated draft running is a very good thing, and it’s not reasonable for me to make it for a server I have strong opposition to being on, therefore it clearly does advance the objective of creating an automated runner. Creating an OFF specific discord also allows people who are interested in the OFF community to have an easier line to one of the people who is helping make the runner which is being used in the OFF drafts.

Last night that server helped flesh out what I consider a good compromise going forward, and discuss some of the issues at hand.

Hey guys, just checking in. I expected to see a lot of backlash and conversation with respect to the server, just wanted to toss my five cents in here.

Myself, and the rest of the moderation team on the server spent a decent chunk of time trying to make a good environment that will allow for a lower barrier to entry for those - for example, I don’t expect people who would prefer to draft on discord would be on CD to vote in the poll above so I don’t know how accurately it would reflect the community.

I’m not a coder, but my impression from the FF community was that discord drafting was something much of the community was interested in pursuing. I don’t care for politics really, I just want people to do more of what makes them happy, and personally I see this as a middle ground where the option to CD or discord draft is available (as per Danny’s suggestion, so that way participation score can be unaffected). And ultimately as a backup, lists also would work.

I would love for the server to have more perspectives on it! Personally I know that before I jump into a scenario it’s easy to have perceptions that are misconceived from lack of data - I’m not saying joining is mandatory but perhaps just hanging out for a few days in the server might help form more informed opinions that will raise other important conversation topics.

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If the primary purpose of the new server, as you have described it, is to create an automated drafting solution out of the SLFF server, then I fail to see a reason why you need to run full drafts on Discord. Mock drafts/second drafts with smaller testing groups can provide the same functionality without the scoring implications.

Just to be clear, you’re just making this draft runner for OFF, and not planning on using it for SLFF or any other form of FF?

I believe you are correct on both accounts. There’s a data bias issue, and I do believe you are correct that when forced to do so from the CD migration, people did like the discord drafts.

Neither account adds justification to the creation of a separate server.

Ultimately, my underlying concern remains:

I can’t see how these two statements aren’t tied together. It’s impossible to look at this as anything but a political play to gain leverage over people running SLFF and the SLFF server. By scoring the drafts in full with OFF, you attempt to force people, whom (as you are well aware) would not join your server, to do so.

Furthermore, the way you have worded your statements indicates that with no intent to bring the draft runner to SLFF, you take away the most significant chunk of benefit from the creation of a draft runner. I could be wrong about this, which is why I asked above, but your wording speaks volumes.

Why you think this will work, and not just fragment the league further, isn’t quite clear to me. But it’s clear to me that despite your positioning of this as apolitical, that is what it is.

Rome wasn’t built, or rebuilt, in three weeks.

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I find it fascinating how concerned some of the individuals here are about the barrier to entry despite how hostile the slff server they defend treats new members. I know my rookie FF team was pretty hurt and had to take a step back from the server. Its also a big part of why some of the other members got dis-involved in SLFF.

Personally I also feel like the barrier to entry is lessened with more focus on discord. Most of the members who join of late have been through discord and join the server, along with application teams servers before they even start drafts. There are a lot of people, including me in the past, that tend to shy away from posting on CD. I see no problem with a side offseason effort to try to make drafting easier for many, even if some within the community would rather have it be done by no one rather than someone other than themselves.

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This runs both ways.

Emphasis mine. While your overall point is valid, this statement is rather confrontational (and in particular stark contrast to your paragraph on hostility).

The SLFF server is equally equipped to provide the same lower barrier of entry you mention. If you see otherwise, why? What structural differences between the new server and the SLFF server exist? Why could they not be brought to the SLFF server?

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