I have always viewed CD as a place to get real, honest answers. If you ask a “bad” question, whether it be something that offends people or that has been asked a million times before, yes, you will probably get some “mean” responses, but that is to be expected. You would probably get the same type of responses from people on your team if you asked them the same question in person, so don’t expect it to be any different just because you ask it online. As a general rule of thumb, on my team, we talk about the questions we may have with each other before asking on CD, just to make sure that it is a valid question and that we have done a quick google search and checked our other resources first. Once you have posted something, you have to realize that it is now public for everyone to see, and even though you may get some “bad” or “rude” responses, if you ask a legitimate questions, you will get mainly legitimate responses in return.
This is my feeling on the subject also. Well said Nathan.
I red dotted Foster’s post, and I’d do it again to another individual who posted in the same fashion.
Was there useful information in there? Sure (though some of it was only half-true).
Was it also condescending and needlessly hostile? Absolutely.
Nothing in the post he was responded to warranted him insulting that poster. There are very seldom reasons to call someone an idiot on Chief Delphi (or imply they are an idiot, as Foster did). Certainly not expressing a viewpoint in the reasonable fashion the poster he was responding to did. It’s fine to lay out the difference in perspective, it’s not fine to attack someone for it.
To expand upon the wisdom of [paraphrasing] not saying stuff on Chief Delphi you wouldn’t say to their face, you have to be even more selective on internet than you would be in person. I try to avoid posting anything here I wouldn’t be comfortable e-mailing to my coworkers or boss. Any non-verbal cues you may give in person to convey the message you want are lost over the internet. You have to assume anything you write will be interpreted in the worst way possible. Even if you didn’t mean to offend, if there’s a possibility that your post can offend, it likely will. The rapport you have with another poster will not carry over to the general public, and considering you’re posting on a public forum, think twice about leaning on that rapport to send the message you want. There are those out there who may take the wrong message away from your post.
I have a real problem with the groupthink and shutdown posts that get lobbed about here. “FIRST lifers” often likes to pile on to people espousing a particular viewpoint. In some cases (such as when a poster is bullying another team), it’s warranted. However, it frequently isn’t. It’s not only applicable to Chief Delphi (it’s worse on Facebook and elsewhere), but it’s very present here. Instead of fostering a discussion to illuminate the misguided, people simply shutdown conversation and belittle those they disagree with. Posting a dead horse emoticon is not a sufficient answer to a question. Snidely saying another poster needs to use the search function or read the manual is not an inclusive approach.
remember when communicating through text online, you no longer have other clues like visual hints, tone of voice, body language, etc… and neither does the other person get those clues from you (emoticons don’t cut it).
In other ways it is easier to communicate via text online as you have time to craft and edit a good response.
Bottom line, it is more difficult to communicate via text online than face to face. Be aware of what you are posting and a lot of frustration can be avoided.
Not to counter, but to amplify: when posting online, especially on a site such as CD where your post is likely to be read by third parties, and not just this week, but as a result of a search, it is helpful to provide context with your post, especially if it is not already in the thread. For example:
So here, you have told both the OP and readers in 2020 why you thought 100 pounds was a good design lift. This is necessary in order to make intelligent use of the information; perhaps OP was only making three-stacks, or perhaps was planning to build and lift two stacks at the same time. For the next game requiring a lift, the load may be less than one pound (an inner tube, pool noodle, or small ball) or rather heavier (a mobile goal or a robot). OBTW, it is far easier to read rudeness into the second post than the first.
And also, back to the main topic:
This is one of the nice things about posting on line. If you are in doubt, use the Preview Post button. Walk away. Come back and re-read it. Edit it. Remember that the reader cannot hear the inflection in your voice (though you may be able to simulate it with an emoji). Repeat until you either delete it or decide that it’s worthy to post.
I’ll confess here that I’m the one who proposed a highlight post:
Note that Foster did not say that the poster **was **an idiot, but that by making uninformed inflammatory statements, poster **looked **like an idiot. While that particular sentence would have been more appropriate in a PM than a post, it was spot-on. I recommended it as a spotlight post not to call out the poster, but because it is a bit of wisdom that people should see every once in a while.
I do not give rep very often (12 times so far, all positive), but if I were giving negative rep for that exchange, it would be for ignorantly [strike]defaming our generous sponsors rather than correcting the score with a bit of stern advice[/strike] calling Foster, Kate Pilotte, and by extension, the good folks at AndyMark a pack of liars. (If #2 means anything else, it’s poorly written, indeed!) IMO, calling someone a liar (especially without evidence) is far ruder than anything Foster did in defense.
Folks,
Along with paying attention to LL’s advice, let’s not go overboard and label any/all short simple replies that tell people to search first, or to read the manual as “snide”. I wouldn’t want anyone to take away from LL’s post that all replies of that ilk are automatically snide.
Searching (multiple places, including the manuals) before wasting others’ time is a valuable STEM skill people need to use.
Wasting the time of a large number of readers, plus distracting the few who reply from topics containing non-trivial questions, is definitely rude.
Posters who rudely do make the mistake of assuming CD is a replacement for doing their own fundamental preparation before they interject, do need to be steered (with civility) onto a better path. That better path will accelerate converting their STEM inspiration into STEM results.
While I realize that this form of rudeness is often the result of bad habits picked up elsewhere, and is (IMO) almost never a form of intentional selfishness, that doesn’t mean it isn’t both rude, and worthy of feedback/corection.
Blake
If you post anything about there being a search function or reading the manual without attempting to answer the question you are being rude.
The correct way to answer is to provide them the information and where you found it and remind them to check the manual or use the search function.[/quote]
[/quote]
Thank you for pointing out several reasons why readers should not assume rudeness when they read a post that could easily be interpreted as the friendly ribbing that occurs all the time in STEM and other conversations.
Readers have a duty to hold up their end of the online-communication-can-be-difficult bargain too.
I sometimes worry that an over-emphasis on the writer side of the equation is a form of bullying by folks who are intolerant of diversity. Remembering the points you made can help us all avoid falling into that trap. Thanks again for pointing out the pitfalls writers, and readers, can fall into.
Blake
I believe you are mistaken, and that your blanket assertion is wrong.
YMMV.
I think our disagreement is a form of respectful diversity that should not be suppressed.
Blake
You will never have to worry about me being rude on Chief Delphi ever again because my head just exploded from reading some posts on this thread, I have died, and this was a prerecorded message.
Agreed. Communication through writing is a difficult skill and is definitely not my forte. To me, it’s not simply a matter of being rude or polite - it’s a matter of being professional.
Before you respond, would you answer your client’s questions that way?
Before asking for technical advice, have you properly worded your request?
David
I agree that posting “use the search” or “read the manual” by itself is rude. And I also think it is lazy to ask questions without doing the slightest bit of research. It’s possible to believe both of those things simultaneously if you think it makes sense to be considerate to other people.
I think the bullying comes in when somebody ends up on the “wrong” end of hot button issues, even if they are constructive about it. Don’t be “wrong” about one of those topics around here, or a bunch of people are gonna get crabby in a hurry.
My thoughts on the subject:
- I think rudeness and snappy comebacks are becoming the norm in society. Ever watch a TV sitcom from 20, 30, 40 years ago and think “this is boring” or when someone says a line that, at the time was considered snappy, you think “… that’s not funny”?
Shows like the Simpsons were one time seen as edgy and subversive but that brought along a host of copycats and as those speech patterns became the norm in our schoolyards and workplaces, along came a host of new shows that stepped it up a notch to be edgier and funnier. Repeat over and over.
Now we have a generation of people who think this is just the way everyone talks. And, they’re right.
- In this age of social media, people REALLY like their likes. I had a teenager I know come up to me and complain “you comment on my Instagram posts… but you never like them.” He was serious! To me it’s just a “like” or a dot or fave but for this connected generation it is an important piece of validation, for better or for worse.
I heard that now that Twitter has switched from “favourite” to “like” the usage of the new button has already increased 6%. People like their hearts.
- Writing a clever post that subtly puts someone down can be fun, but like others have mentioned, these posts will be here “forever”. I regularly Google for questions and read CD threads from years back. Your future potential sponsor may be doing the same. Your future students may be too! (To anyone from 2706 that sees this - hi
) Always ask “is this how I want the world to forever remember me?”
If you know what to search for you can find things I posted to Usenet 20+ years ago. Posts that make me cringe.
- Foster’s post was very good, very informative, and contained the historical information needed to add perspective to the discussion. Our team is new so I’m learning about FIRST Choice and AndyMark’s contribution to FRC as we go, so I appreciated his post (and that whole thread, really). I think it was that last line, that closing “zinger”, that everyone got up in arms about. Take away that last line and everything would have been just fine.
A) All readers should remember that I wrote (pertaining to this subtopic) that posters should be steered civilly onto a better path.
B) I’m sincerely curious why you chose to label the hypothetical OP as “lazy” and the hypothetical responder as “rude”. Aren’t they both lazy? Or both rude? What justifies painting them with different brushes?
Blake
That is a problem with any online community. Over time, unwritten rules of behavior develop and when new members arrive, they are held to standards that they don’t understand.
It is easy to be blindsided by a terse response to a question that you thought was pertinent but within the community has been answered many times over.
It’s easy as a long time community member to forget what it’s like to not know the community’s rules. CD does a pretty good job informing new users with the sticky posts but as an “older user” it’s my responsibility to be gentle with anyone who has a post count under 10 and it’s important for the new members to understand that lurking an learning the community before posting is a smart idea.
Asking for an answer to a question without searching or consulting the manual before hand can be rude or lazy. But a rude/lazy post doesn’t mean you have to give them a rude/lazy reply.
Sometimes we forget that we belong to a particular culture that other people aren’t familiar with yet. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. I used Windows PCs for years before I bought my first Mac. I found a large Mac forum and posted a question that went something like “In Windows I could do ___ and that was really handy, how do I do this on a Mac?” EVERY answer I got was a condescending variation of “we don’t do that around here”. Multiple people tried to tell me why I was doing it wrong, and if I would only adapt my ways to Apple’s ways and see the light, I would be happier. At least one person said “if that’s what you want then go back to Windows”. Not a friendly community at all – until you conform to their culture. But I think we all sometimes send that kind of message, whether we intend to or not.
There’s a difference between being direct and being unpleasant. I know that I certainly have learned a lot about where the line between the two falls over the past few years, and I certainly have lots more to learn (as do most people, I think).
The key, I think, is to remember that no matter how much you disagree with someone else, they likely are posting in good faith and share many of the values you do. One can disagree strongly without being alienating if they keep this in mind. The purpose of a forum is for honest discourse for the betterment of all involved - if we all agreed about everything, there would be nothing to discuss. The exchange of ideas can only remain productive if both sides maintain the willingness to critically evaluate their own views in light of what other people say - when someone feels attacked, that willingness tends to evaporate, and the discussion ceases to be useful (and, often, enjoyable).
One habit I have tried to get into is intentionally softening my posts before I click “submit.” Remove superlatives, qualify opinions, and the like. It can go a long way towards keeping a discussion productive.
QFT!
For the record, I don’t consider replies “Read the manual, the answer you want is in there, along with related important information.”; or even the occasional “Read the manual.” to be rude or lazy.
And, unless a close-enough-for-it-to-be-OK relationship between the two people exists outside of the topic at hand, I do consider “Read the manual, dipstick.” to be rude.
With this in mind, I 100% agree with LL.
YMMV
Blake