Overt Repeatedly

I apologize in advance if this question has already been asked and answered. I did a quick search but couldn’t find a clear answer. I also already read the manual, but would like some clarification of the thoughts my team has had.

I know this has been talked about “repeatedly” but the rules and the numerous threads have not been very “overt” in defining the finer points of possessing a ball. Two questions we have:

Does hitting the ball TWICE while directing it ANYWHERE count as a possession?

Does pinning the ball against the side rail for ONE second count as an “overt” isolation …or possession?

A robot that struggles on your alliance (e.g. box on wheels) can still be used to possess in a zone if they bump the ball twice in a direction …or they pin it against rail for a second …back away and another alliance bot picks it up and runs. Does that initial robot (box on wheels) get the possession?

We cannot comment on hypothetical in-game scenarios.

Given the limited information given, #1 would be situationally dependent. It could be called either way. #2 would be “Trapping”, and most likely called as possession–again, situationally dependent.

So is there a certain amount of time that a robot should trap a ball, before the refs consider the ball possession? Is pushing the ball once or twice, only a short distance, into the mechanism of one of your Alliance robots, considered possession? These are questions that I think need serious clarification before competitions begin, and I can’t seem to find those clarifications anywhere.

How long will it take refs to see it? How much do you want to gamble?

There won’t be any definitive clarification published by FIRST. Instead, ask your head ref at the drivers’ meeting. I’m sure it’s going to be discussed in ref training, which hasn’t completed yet.

Quite honestly, you WON’T find them. Let’s get that out of the way first. You can ask Q&A–as some teams already have–and find that they will not rule–see the first line of my previous post. Again, you won’t find those clarifications.

That said: for pushing the ball into your partner, I would probably call possession (herding). Probably. I can’t say definitely.

For the trapping, it’s a LOT harder, and that would be highly situationally dependent, so I’m not even going to touch that.

Something like this happened at Suffield Shakedown.
There was a box on wheels trying to get a possession, and I remember the announcer saying something along the lines of, “the refs tell me it takes two taps”
So the box robot tapped the ball twice and it was a triple assist (said the announcer)