pic: Another Time Out?



The 237 n.e.r.d.s hang out on the ramp while 11 works frantically to fix their robot in Monty Madness’ semi-finals

aha a picture of Aroon

Unfortunately, 11 ran out of time to fix the robot, and we wound up asking 237 to give up their time out to help us fix the robot so we could have a fair match (we had used ours during quarter finals when one of our alliance partners had gone into the eliminations not in working order, and we eventually wound up resorting to a reserve). 237 happily gave us their time out, one of the most gracious acts of all of yesterday’s event, and we had an extra 5 minutes to fix our sheared 1/4 steel drive shaft (normally an hour to one and a half hour fix, considering we had to take off the bumper, side plate, electrical panel, and gear box; disassemble our gearbox and remove all the snap rings, sprockets and gears; change the drive shaft; mount all the gears sprockets and snap rings; reassemble the gearbox; and remount the gearbox, electrical panel, chains, side plates, and bumpers. Everything was locktighted too, making it take even longer.) The head refs and event managers rushed us, and wound up not letting us compete, sending out only 2 of our alliance partners (we wound up fixing our robot half way through the match). Then the match was started with no warning at all, not allowing 1676 to turn on their robot, making it a 3 on 1 match. They called for a restart the second they started the match when no one was ready, only to have the refs give a thumbs down. After the match, both alliances fought for a rematch, since it had been unfair and rushed, and i witnessed another gracious act from 237: they argued relentlessly to give us the rematch, only to be shut down by officials. What irritated all of us was that we had had to wait for an excruciating amount of time in que while the quarter finals before us were restarted and time outs were called. We were only given a 5 minute time out, while others got 10 minute time outs, because they had a tight schedule to keep. After falling behind more than an hour, what would five minutes be?? If the head refs had taken the time to check that everyone was prepared with the traditional “blue team ready? red team ready?” and the match had been a 2 vs 3 match, everyone would be disappointed, but not annoyed. I understand that they had a schedule, and I understand it wasn’t intentional, but yelling at teams to get on the field and starting the match while no one is ready just to keep a schedule that has already fallen behind is unnerving, especially when the drivers from the opposing alliance argue that they weren’t ready when the match began either. I hope that next year, nothing like this will happen.

yea we might have been able to fix it faster if we had adults handling the robot :rolleyes:

MORT: While I can’t talk about that situation in detail, I will save that for the refs and other officials at Monty that did deal with it, it can be said that refs and announcersr made announcements about getting on the field and turing on robots numerous times during the period. While unfortuante that we couldn’t allow for more time to let people repair their bots, due to us being off schedule we had to push through in order to allow for enough time for a field break down and packing.

I hope Conor, Sara, or Dave can explain more and give more details.

I know they had their reasons, and there are no personal grudges, the situation was just unfortunate and irritating for the teams, but then again, the unnerving waits from the first two quarter finals got to everyone, and it may have been the pressure of semi finals that made the situation so hectic for the two alliances. Overall, Monty was fun, and we did well for only using rookie drivers. We were there to have fun and break in new drivers, so what more could we ask for?

Seems as a lot of teams did this.

Yes, I will say that there were announcements. But the problem that I found with those announcements (and it’s questionable the drive teams heard them, after being down there myself), was that they were were to the effect of “oh, we’re starting the match momentarily”, but those were given over the course of approximately two minutes. Plus, momentarily is a relative word. If they had said “we’re starting the match in one minute”, then it would’ve been OK. But that was not the case. There was no “red team ready, blue team ready”. I will echo my coach on this one. 237 gave up their timeout for us (which was only 5 minutes instead of ten, and if the judges had given us the full time we were entitled to, none of this would’ve happened), which was extremely gracious. FIRST is all about gracious professionalism and should be respected by all involved, IMHO. And IMHO, the judges did not recognize that graciousness. They seemed too worried about keeping to their schedule to not give 11 time to finish up with their robot (which would’ve been virtually one minute), but even when both (BOTH, I say) alliances wanted a rematch, the alliances were still too 'gotta-keep-to-the-already-at-least-an-hour-behind-schedule to grant us one rematch. They could’ve even given us one more minute, and, as I’ve said, we would not have had a problem.

Now, I hate to sound ungracious by slamming the officials, but to me, and I’ll see who agrees (please respond with your opinion), but there’s something not right with this picture. I realize that nothing can be done now and that it doesn’t really matter anyways, as it is an off-season match, but officials and refs, just please take this as a PSA for the future, especially for regionals, as most of us believe this shouldn’t have happened.

However, Monty Madness was overall a great event, very well run, beautiful school, everything was done well. Good job 1403!

Guys please calm down, this picture was not put up for a long winded explanation as to why there was a time out, or how un-gracious a decision was. This picture was put up just so that we could see what went on at Monty Madness. There is no need to point fingers here, if you have an issue with someone please express it privately to them. as to the long winded explanation, im sure the intent was noble, but please try not to point fingers. Thanks for putting up with my little rant guys.

awww don’t we look so nice? haha. this is a nice picture, its amazing how comfortable those ramps were to sit on, not just at monty, but all season long. I think first needs to put more game elements onto the field that are comfortable to sit and lay on. :wink:

we ate, sat, and slept on our ramp during the build season :smiley:

Quick story of what happened:
Quarter Finals, 271 237 1302 (Blue) vs 11 1676 1048 (Red), the Red called an alliance time out, it was granted and the robots that were on the field already were turned off by the teams. The time out ended, teams were called to the field for the match by the Querers, the Match Announcer, the Referees, the Blue alliance showed up after waiting, the Red Alliance appeared to be lagging and 11 didn’t get on to the field at all due to repairs. 1048 turned their robot on like the entire Blue alliance did, but 1676 who had their robot waiting on the field, never turned their robot on.

The Quarter Final Match, where 1676 wasn’t turned on was the one incident we as ref’s had a tough time with all day, hear me out though, we put a lot of logic behind our decsion and we stuck to the rules.

Page 7 of this section of the rules has a nice graphic

side note: as an off season rule we shortened the length of the time out from 6 minutes to 5 minutes (announced during Alliance Selection)

What had happened was we gave you guys the time out, and then when the time out ends, you are supposed to be on the field ready for the match. We announced over the PA at least 3 times (4 if I’m correct) that we were waiting for 1676 to be turned on, and thats after we called the robots to the field. On top of that, I personally was standing right next to the robot waiting for someone to come over, I stayed there until the offical countdown began, which should start at the end of the time out, and did. The match did indeed start with a 3 on 1, and we know it’s not the fairest of situations (especially in elim’s)

Anyway back to what this thread is about, the picture.

Aren’t they cute?

I would like to add to Conor’s very detailed and accurate description of what happened.

While I would like nothing more than to say that we (237) were the ones responsible for the acts of GP you said we were responsible for, we were not.

271 was the alliance captain, and the call came from 271 to use our time out.

Also, I witnessed at least one of the announcements for all robots to return to the field, and one would think that this meant for all teams to be aware to turn their bots back on and be ready to play.

We had that happen to us in the finals, and the time outs never seem as long as they say they are for. When all else fails, work on your robot on the field. If it’s workable, turn the sucker on, if it’s not… at least it’s on the field for all the good it’s worth.

I know we have gotten burned by this many times as well at other competitions, as we left our robot on at one during a time out, and the battery power died.

Also, yet again to dash all hopes of our team’s GP, we were not “arguing relentlessly” for the refs to provide a rematch. In fact, the part we were worked up about was the fact that the match had a huge delay in the autonomous period, and the normal game play cause we thought the refs were going to go back on their word, and let 11 in and also let 1676 to come in and turn their bot on.

I’m sorry to say, but the refs call were hugely fair in this situation, and all of MM. Refs can never go back on their words, or else you will have a huge group of unhappy people. IN the spirit of reffing in general at MM I personally would of liked to see some ramming penalties called for autonomous, but if they did it for teams who rammed us, then they would have had to do it all competition.

Since they did not, it was a standard practice to let it happen. If you are going to call things as a ref in FIRST, you want to follow suit with the refs at MM, and either call things as penalties all day long, or let things slide all day long.

I know the situation that happened sucked for team 11, and their alliance, but we have all had things like us happen to us before.

“The refs decision are final” is the biggest thing you should take from a competition, and the manual when you read it no matter how much it may hurt your team, or your pride when you think they are singling you out to be unfair. Because they are not.

giving up time outs is a very gp thing to do…congrats to 237…and 1923 gave theirs too.

i mean, it’s an off-season. do we really NEED to win? no. what happens, happens. we were there for fun, and to try out new drivers. [myself included]

the refs will make their decisions, and you just kinda have to go with it.

if it were a regional, maybe i’d feel differently…but, like i said, it’s not.

I will repeat, it was 271’s decision to give up our timeout, not ours (237). We were all cool with it, but in the end the credit goes to 271.

And, I’ll agree off-season’s are a bit more laid back and should be treated that way, but when you believe you are being screwed over somehow, whether at an off-season, or a regional it doesn’t really make a difference where you are when it happens.

You are still [strike]mad[/strike] frustrated in the end, and want to see it resolved in your favor.

I’ll say it, even though I said it probably six times at Monty. I am SORRY that 1676 did not get to turn on their robot, and I’m also sorry that team 11 wasn’t done in time. I was TOLD that time-outs were being cut down to five minutes, so that decision didn’t even come from the refs. The biggest problem was 1403 had a deadline they needed to be out of the gym by, and were cutting it dangerously close.

Even as the five minute time out dwindled down, 1676 was asked numerous times, by numerous refs and volunteers to turn on their robot so we could start the match. George even announced it over the audio system. It is unfortunate that they had not turned on their robot, I wanted to see that match as much as anyone, but the fact of the matter is, there was a time to do it, and they didn’t. I hated to sit there and say “sorry, no rematch.” It really ate my heart out, but EVERYONE was being pushed yesterday, including the referees.

We tried to make as many breaks as we could. We were EXTREMELY lenient on penalties, and even after ramming penalties were discussed, we did our best to just WARN teams rather than punish them. In all fairness, Monty Madness is an off-season. It is about having FUN, not about who is right and who is wrong. But if there is anything I have learned from being on a field, it is that the referees decisions are FINAL. SEVERAL refs told me about 1676 and from there we were forced to start the match. Somehow the drive team heard the “get to your controls” announcement I made, so I don’t know how they missed the five before it. Still, I’m sorry for what happened.

I’m really proud of the GP at this competition, A LOT of teams gave up timeouts to help out other teams. Wicked. Also, I really appreciate Libby, Conor, Joe, and Elgin’s remarks. I had a great time at Monty Madness, and I was pretty sure that’s what it was all about. :slight_smile:

Oh, and Kev Shaw, stop looking so emo!

Yes what happened was sad, but what’s done is done. I heard a rumor from the 1403 crew that the power was being cut on the gym at a certain time and the competition had to be over and the field packed up by then. I’m not sure if there’s any truth to this rumor, but that could be the reason that the “5 minute timeout” rule was put into effect.

With that said, great job to 1403, a very snazzy event especially for your first time. I’m more than willing to come back and announce for you guys in the future.

To All:

To anyone I have accidentally offended in my post, I apologize. The main point was simply to get the word out that something had happened that should or shouldn’t have. I don’t know. I wasn’t down there (on the field), but I was told by everyone on the drive team that they didn’t hear the announcements, that they were scrambling around trying to get 11 up and operational. Maybe what has to be done is to have the refs turn on any robots for teams that do not turn them on. That is an option. I don’t know.

I hate to detract from 1403’s excellent event, so I won’t go on any longer. And I also recognize that it is only a postseason match and really doesn’t count for anything. Thanks 1403!

The Canuck

:eek: I see I accidentally opened a can of worms here. I was overall very satisfied with Monty Madness, and I had a blast. I’m only a little disappointed that we didn’t get the opportunity to show 271, 237, and 1302 what we were made of, and give them a run for their money, but in the end, like everyone has said, it was about having fun. Not to sound redundant, but what’s done is done, and we’re all fine with that. Judging by the turn out and the set up, I would have never been able to guess this was Monty’s first year, had I not known. It was the size of a small regional :ahh: !! The event was the biggest post season I’ve gone to, and it was very impressive. I still wish I could’ve seen that match happen, but what can I say, you live, you learn. My only concern is that our robot is rather beat up for our board of education showcase tonight… Congrats to teams 237,271, and 1302 for moving onto the finals. I hope Monty Madness will continue to grow and improve through the years, and maybe we’ll wind up with our own little post-season championships :smiley: .