I’m not complaining, as there as obviously nothing that can be done about this at this point, but this was a very poor call by the refs.
If you skip forward to 2:12 in the video, you can see 1477 from the blue alliance attempting to make its way back to the batter for the capture. However, on its way through the secret passage, the side panel came off of the defense in position 5 and prevented 1477 from crossing through the neutral zone. This slowed down the team very significantly, and prevented them from making it on the batter in the end.
We tried talking to the refs about it, but their explanation is that “It could have been avoided.”
If we had the capture, it would have been an extra 30 points (25 for capture, 5 for challenge), and the blue alliance would have won the match 210 to 205.
Either way, 5172 had a great time competing at this event. It’s just too bad this is the way we had to go out.
I agree even though I wasn’t there on a couple matches that I watched quite a few matches to be able to tell the ref quality was not as it should of been and it could of been better but they should’ve checked the defense side shields to make sure they are secured at Michigan districts we used gafers tape to secure the end shield so technically it is a field fault/arena fault
If you read the section of the tournament rules that deals with field faults, the blue box underneath it reads:
Note that an ARENA FAULT that does not affect MATCH outcome
in the judgement of the Head REFEREE does not lead to a MATCH
replay. Examples include, but are not limited to:
A. a piece of FIELD plastic falls into the FIELD in the last 5 seconds of a
MATCH, far away from any human or ROBOT activity, and in such a
way that it does not affect MATCH outcome
B. delay in the playing of an ARENA sound
C. mismatch between the timer on the Audience Screen and the FIELD
Timer
While it was in the last ~20 as opposed to 5 seconds, it would appear this piece of field plastic broke off and fell into the field and did not affect the match outcome. If you watch carefully 1477 gets stuck on boulders, not the actual field piece. So it was within the rights of the Head Referee to choose not to replay this match.
I was pointing out the part about it not affecting the outcome of the match. The box also says that reasons not to replay a match are not limited to that list.
It was not far away. 1477 touched it and knocked it off. However, it was not the divider that was holding them up, what was holding them up was a boulder, which you can see clearly in the image attached.
It is pretty clear the intent of the exception to the field fault rule is not for cases that could go either way. It is clearly not for “close calls” like this one. It is for things that are completely unimportant that someone is screaming about in order to get a match replay. Even if 1477 got stuck on other game obstacles during the last 30 seconds, it is plainly obvious that the plastic was a part of why they got hung up in the end, and affected the outcome of the match. Denying the team a field fault because of this ruling is really stretching the intent of the rules to match what was decided on the field, to be honest.
I would argue that it was not plainly obvious that the plastic was a part of why they didn’t make it to the batter. After initially knocking it off, they never contact the plastic again.
To be completely fair, they got hung up on a boulder, then struggled to cross a defense, and finally tried to use the secret passage to get back.
Even if they had made it, you’d have lost points for them using the secret passage.
If I remember right, this was immediately following the long discussion surrounding 254’s potential second yellow card. With such a strict timeline, it’s not surprising the refs would err on the side of “if any of those three things hadn’t happened, they’d be on the batter and this would be a non-issue” rather than jumping to make a replay and push things further beyond the time limit.
Given the conversations I heard over the weekend, the refs were very worried about making sure things were as fair as possible for all parties. Think about the thread title here. It’d be just as fair to say “Poor driving by 1477 on Newton Subdivision SF2 M2” but it shouldn’t really be said, either.
Referees are one of the most difficult roles to recruit for. It is a thankless position that causes stress and guilt and posts like this on CD.
If you’re not happy with the quality of refereeing, then volunteer for the position yourself or help recruit other people who you believe will be quality refs.
I know of at least two people who were irritated with the reffing situation this weekend, and both of them let me know that they absolutely will be refs in Indiana next year, to help us improve our local cache.
I see what you’re saying, but you should look at 1477’s visibility. They were stationed at driving position 3 (the right side), so much of that interaction with the boulder and broken field piece was completely hidden by the Sally Port. I don’t know about you, but I would find it mighty suspicious if I knocked off a piece of the field, lost sight of our robot’s chassis due to the sally port, tried to drive forward and then saw our robot tipping backwards. I can’t say for sure, but I think our teammates THOUGHT they were stuck on a piece of the field. Either way, it forced them to drive all the way around it rather than driving straight over the ball, which you could see them easily doing at 2:27.
And it can go without saying that the team obviously would have driven over the rock wall and not through the secret passage if this incident had not occurred.
I completely agree, and I’m not blaming the ref or complaining. I was just pointing out an observation I made. I might have made the same call myself if I was a ref, who knows?
Do you not think that it’s entirely possible they got hung up on that boulder BECAUSE they couldn’t use the field space being occupied by the damaged field element to make their way back to their batter??? They certainly knew trying to just drive over that Divider wall would be impossible so they had little choice but to take the route over the boulder.
Then, after struggling with that initial situation, following events are irrelevant as they likely wouldn’t have played out in that same way had they not lost all the time fighting with the initial boulder.
I see this just like many sporting events where events occurring after some “critical play” in a game could NEVER be assumed to have occurred in the same way had that initial “critical play” turned out differently.
With even a few extra seconds, 1477 surely wouldn’t have felt the need to make a break through the secret passage to get back to the batter.
Field Faults were called throughout the season for MUCH less impactful Outerworks failures…I don’t see why one wasn’t called here.
I try to explain to my students the difficulty of being an official every season (and for every sport I coach). There is a progression of sorts and each level the task becomes much more difficult. For me and through my own experiences, it is difficult to continue play as a contestant at a very high level (Elims/CMPs); more difficult to coach or mentor at this level; and at the top - officiating.
I understand that people get upset and yes I understand some of the decisions (or nondecisions) made by these people do impact the outcome of matches/seasons (hmm-hmm 2014 NorthStar Semi-finals). But if this is a constant concern and you do feel that strongly that things should be done better - well, then step up and do it.
I am off my soapbox now.
Champs was an incredible experience and I hope all that attended were able to grow themselves and grow their program.
This is a common circlejerk that I see being posted whenever anyone criticizes the quality of refereeing that occurred this year (and is quite frankly the definition of a straw man fallacy). It’s entirely illogical. All because someone feels the quality of refereeing this year wasn’t exactly exemplary doesn’t mean they have no respect for the hard work put in by referees.
I certainly believe it’s possible. They likely would have had an easier time avoiding the boulder. They also had plenty of time once clearing the boulder to cross any of the defenses.
I’m not suggesting it’s ideal. I’m just pointing out there’s a lot more to it than simply “the piece fell off. They lost because of that. It was a terrible call.” That seems to be the sentiment of several posters here. I was a bit surprised initially. But, I can see both sides and think it’s a bit harsh to call out the refs with a tagline such as “poor calling” when really it fits within the rule. That said, I don’t believe 1477 drove poorly. I used that statement as an example to show that it’d be wrong to make that claim just as it’s not right to create the title we have for this thread. We wouldn’t want to say the first. So, why are we so quick to agree with the second?
Publicly dissing the refs’ calls is most likely a very major reason why refs are so hard to find. 2014 was a stressful year for refs; quite a few did not return. 2016 scared off potential refs!
Let me put it this way: If you know the rules better than the refs, then you’re probably needed on the ref crew. If you think your judgment is better than the refs’ judgment, you’re probably needed on the ref crew. I understand that you think that “the quality isn’t up to par” != “no respect”, and I agree with that, BUT, 90+% of the time, it’s expressed as “The refs screwed up, and it cost us the match!!11!” That’s not exactly showing respect for the refs and their hard work! Which is why, almost every time this comes up, the response from the refs (and, in this case, a Volunteer Coordinator who has to RECRUIT them) is, “if you don’t like the reffing, come on down and join us!”
And, in all seriousness, we need more refs anyways. Gotta replace all the ones that got scared off by Stronghold, and allow for more expansion…
