Psychological Warfare - The Elimination Rounds

FIRST General Forum
1

Posted by Raul at 1/18/2001 8:59 AM EST

Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

I would like to pose a question.

What would be better if you go second in the elimination rounds, to beat the previous score or score lower than your opponent on purpose?

Think about it - you may have to decide.

If you choose to beat the score, then you have to go again right away and the opponent gets to see what score they have to beat to win. If you score lower than them on purpose, it not only makes them go first again and lets you see what you have to beat, but it also makes them wonder how much risk they should take in posting a big score.

In any case, the alliance that goes second controls the sequence of events. This of course matters most if the alliances are evenly matched in scoring capabilities.

Raul

2

Posted by Mike Faticanti at 1/18/2001 9:59 AM EST

Coach on team #157, AZTECHS, from Assabet Valley R.T.H.S. and Simplex/EMC²/Intel/Duke Engineering.

In Reply to: Psychological Warfare - The Elimination Rounds
Posted by Raul on 1/18/2001 8:59 AM EST:

: I would like to pose a question.

: What would be better if you go second in the elimination rounds, to beat the previous score or score lower than your opponent on purpose?

: Think about it - you may have to decide.

: If you choose to beat the score, then you have to go again right away and the opponent gets to see what score they have to beat to win. If you score lower than them on purpose, it not only makes them go first again and lets you see what you have to beat, but it also makes them wonder how much risk they should take in posting a big score.

: In any case, the alliance that goes second controls the sequence of events. This of course matters most if the alliances are evenly matched in scoring capabilities.

: Raul

Thought;

Whether you go first or second, the higher scoring team goes third. As soon as match 3 starts just hit the kill switches. Now the lower scoring team has to beat your first score (match 4). If they “do” you get the chance to beat that score (match 5) and so and so on. So it appears to me that the first time you are out there is the most important match whether you are 1st or second.

Which also means if you have a high scoring alliance they may infact have to play only ONE match each elimination round and just sit back and say “beat that score”.

BUT I do agree if things are evenly matched you will want to go “all out” every match.

IMHO

3

Posted by Joe Johnson at 1/18/2001 10:07 PM EST

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

In Reply to: Re: Psychological Warfare - The Elimination Rounds
Posted by Mike Faticanti on 1/18/2001 9:59 AM EST:

This is what I think you both are missing:

TIME makes everything risky.

I believe that teams will find that they can get a
mid-range score 95% of the time they try, a high score
%50 of the time they try and a monster score about 10%
of the time they try.

The thing to remember is that it will often be the case
that going for the high or monster scores may not allow
the teams to even get a mid-range score in the times
they fail.

This is because of the pressure of time and how it
figures in to the score. Teams will have to make a
calculated risk as to what score to try for and what
strategy to try:

Go for the easy one and hope for the other guys to
miss, or go for the homerun early hoping to end it in
two matches (or perhaps giving them more swings for the
fences).

I really can see this being a very excellent finals.

I also see that teams that score XXX in the group
finals may not do so well in the Semi-finals or in the
Finals.

I think that taking chances may be the way to victory.
Chances don’t always pan out, to the everlasting joy
of sports fans around the world!

Joe J.

4

Posted by Raul at 1/19/2001 6:47 PM EST

Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

In Reply to: The tyrany of the clock…
Posted by Joe Johnson on 1/18/2001 10:07 PM EST:

I agree Joe - I was thinking the same thing the other day.

Here is a couple more things to consider in the elimination rounds:

  • If go first you do not have to worry about having to go two matches in a row in the heat of Florida when you just went all out in the previous match and your motors got really hot.
  • When do you use your Stretcher coupons? If a robot uses it in the first match of the first round, then that robot just has one coupon left for all the other matches and all the other rounds. Is it not more likely that you will need these extra points in the later rounds? Why use up the extra points until you know you need them to win?

It takes me 30 minutes to drive to work. Guess what I do every time I drive somewhere? I think about variations in strategy. A’m I the only insane one whose mind is consumed with FIRST every idle minute of their lives for 8 weeks (or more)?

Raul

: This is what I think you both are missing:

: TIME makes everything risky.

: I believe that teams will find that they can get a
: mid-range score 95% of the time they try, a high score
: %50 of the time they try and a monster score about 10%
: of the time they try.

: The thing to remember is that it will often be the case
: that going for the high or monster scores may not allow
: the teams to even get a mid-range score in the times
: they fail.

: This is because of the pressure of time and how it
: figures in to the score. Teams will have to make a
: calculated risk as to what score to try for and what
: strategy to try:

: Go for the easy one and hope for the other guys to
: miss, or go for the homerun early hoping to end it in
: two matches (or perhaps giving them more swings for the
: fences).

: I really can see this being a very excellent finals.

: I also see that teams that score XXX in the group
: finals may not do so well in the Semi-finals or in the
: Finals.

: I think that taking chances may be the way to victory.
: Chances don’t always pan out, to the everlasting joy
: of sports fans around the world!

: Joe J.

5

Posted by Mike Aubry at 1/19/2001 10:43 PM EST

Engineer on team #47, Chiefs, from Pontiac Central and Delphi .

In Reply to: Re: The tyrany of the clock…
Posted by Raul on 1/19/2001 6:47 PM EST:

: It takes me 30 minutes to drive to work. Guess what I do every time I drive somewhere? I think about variations in strategy. A’m I the only insane one whose mind is consumed with FIRST every idle minute of their lives for 8 weeks (or more)?

: Raul

: Hey, you have too much time on your hands - get a life buddy and relax, this year its not even a game! Quit thinking and just build the thing already!

6

Posted by Jim Meyer at 1/18/2001 10:23 AM EST

Engineer on team #67, HOT Team, from Huron Valley Schools and GM Milford Proving Ground.

In Reply to: Psychological Warfare - The Elimination Rounds
Posted by Raul on 1/18/2001 8:59 AM EST:

: I would like to pose a question.

: What would be better if you go second in the elimination rounds, to beat the previous score or score lower than your opponent on purpose?

: Think about it - you may have to decide.

: If you choose to beat the score, then you have to go again right away and the opponent gets to see what score they have to beat to win. If you score lower than them on purpose, it not only makes them go first again and lets you see what you have to beat, but it also makes them wonder how much risk they should take in posting a big score.

: In any case, the alliance that goes second controls the sequence of events. This of course matters most if the alliances are evenly matched in scoring capabilities.

: Raul

I’m not much for strategy but I would try to beat it. If I did then I would try to beat our own score by taking on even more risk. The way I am looking it is that the ordering of the matches is done to increase the drama. It still comes down to which aliance can score the most points. I want as many chances as possible to achieve our best. Intentionally slacking one round seems to reduce our chances of achieving our best.

IMHO

7

Posted by Jessica Boucher at 1/18/2001 1:08 PM EST

Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.

In Reply to: Psychological Warfare - The Elimination Rounds
Posted by Raul on 1/18/2001 8:59 AM EST:

Since we are in semi-auto-alliance this year, are we going to revert back to the time when if you weren’t in first place, you’ll shoot for 5th so that you can be auto-allied with the top seed?

-Jessica B, #237

8

Posted by Matt Leese at 1/18/2001 5:11 PM EST

Other on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Rochester Institute of Technology.

In Reply to: And…what about the qualification-rounds?
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 1/18/2001 1:08 PM EST:

Only if you’re being silly. I think that the past two years have proven that just because your number one seed doesn’t mean you have the best robot out there…

Matt

9

Posted by Joe Johnson at 1/18/2001 10:18 PM EST

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

In Reply to: And…what about the qualification-rounds?
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 1/18/2001 1:08 PM EST:

To perform this strategy successfully, you will have to
control MANY matches. Not only how well you do or
don’t do but how well other do or don’t do.

Moving up or down, that is sort of in your power,
moving to a target location in the ranks, that requres
magic!

Joe J.