Posted by colleen – T190 at 1/6/2001 3:20 PM EST
Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.
So there are some very big changes in the competition structure this year… what does everyone think??
Firstly-- at regionals… teams will be seeded 1-8 based on:
1- Highest Total Score
2- Highest Match Score
3- Flip of coin
BUT… automatically… team 1 is paired with team 5… 2 with 6… 3 with 7 and 4 with 8… from there, they can choose there last 3 partners (5 per alliance, one is spare robot…)
How does everyone think this will work out?
And how about the nationals… they will be divided teams into random divisions of about 80… you will play w/ only those teams and seed relative to only those teams… the top 4 teams in the division will be paired (1 w/ 3 and 2 w/4) and then choose the rest… those two alliances play it out to move on to play against the winners from other divisions…
This a good change??
Let’s hear it 
Posted by Kate T190 at 1/6/2001 3:29 PM EST
Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.
In Reply to: Qualifying and Divided Nationals-- thoughts?
Posted by colleen – T190 on 1/6/2001 3:20 PM EST:
Well, that just goes to show that FIRST-a-holics really do think alike… 
And we didn’t even know that each other was posting about that even though Coll was only a few computers away from me at times of post…
T190 XO
Kate
Posted by Nate Smith at 1/6/2001 3:32 PM EST
Other on team #66, GM Powertrain/Willow Run HS, from Eastern Michigan University and GM Powertrain.
In Reply to: Qualifying and Divided Nationals-- thoughts?
Posted by colleen – T190 on 1/6/2001 3:20 PM EST:
: Firstly-- at regionals… teams will be seeded 1-8 based on:
: 1- Highest Total Score
: 2- Highest Match Score
: 3- Flip of coin
: BUT… automatically… team 1 is paired with team 5… 2 with 6… 3 with 7 and 4 with 8… from there, they can choose there last 3 partners (5 per alliance, one is spare robot…)
: How does everyone think this will work out?
I commented about nationals in the reply to Kate’s messsage, so I’ll just comment on the regionals part…with the rule change that allowed the top teams to pick from amongst themselves last year, there seemed to be quite a bit of it going on…maybe not quite in the same format that FIRST is locking us into this year, but close enough…I think that actually the forced pairings well help to assure the “best-of-the-best” teams are in the finals…helping to assure that the teams that end up on top are some of the best, and not just a fluke…but of course, I could be entirely wrong on this…it’s just how i’m looking at it…
Nate
Posted by Patrick Dingle at 1/6/2001 6:58 PM EST
Other on team #639, Red B^2, from Ithaca High School and Cornell University.
In Reply to: Qualifying and Divided Nationals-- thoughts?
Posted by colleen – T190 on 1/6/2001 3:20 PM EST:
I like this change a lot. Firstly, it makes teams who do poorly look less bad than last year (rank of 67 or so looks a lot better than 254). Secondly and more importantly, it allows more teams to be in the finals. If there are 4 divisions, and 4 alliances per devision, and 4 teams per alliance, that means 64 teams get to play, compared to last year’s 48 (I think). Thirdly, it sort of raises the suspense of the finals. Until the finals, no two teams from different divisions play each other, and suddenly we have the best teams from different divisions playing each other.
Patrick
Posted by bill whitley at 1/6/2001 7:02 PM EST
Student on team #70, Auto City Bandits, from Powers Catholic High School and Kettering University.
In Reply to: Re: Qualifying and Divided Nationals-- thoughts?
Posted by Patrick Dingle on 1/6/2001 6:58 PM EST:
There is no longer any point in scouting all the teams, only the ones in your division. Once you are in the finals, scouting doesn’t matter. For the other alliance has absolutly no impact on how you can preform. (I really dont like the idea of that)
Bill
Posted by colleen – T190 at 1/6/2001 7:59 PM EST
Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.
In Reply to: Re: Qualifying and Divided Nationals-- thoughts?
Posted by Patrick Dingle on 1/6/2001 6:58 PM EST:
actually-- the way it will work out is that there will be LESS teams in the finals at both the regionals and nationals…
20 teams will move on at regionals as opposed to the 24
40 as opposed to 48 at nationals…
we asked Eric about this… and he said that for regionals… increasing the number of teams making to finals (remember the need for factor of 5 etc…) would make the teams needed for the finals BIGGER than the number of teams at some regionals…
as well, at both reg and Nats adding another round of finals would lose many qualifying matches per team… this allows more playing time for all in qualifying…
–colleen
Posted by Raul at 1/6/2001 8:56 PM EST
Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.
In Reply to: Actually-- less teams from last year…
Posted by colleen – T190 on 1/6/2001 7:59 PM EST:
I think it is a shame that such a low percentage of teams participating at the nationals are advancing to the elimination rounds. There will be a lot of dissappointed teams.
I know I’ve complaints enough already about this year’s game (I must really be getting old and crotchety), so I will just shut up now.
Raul
Posted by Patrick Dingle at 1/6/2001 9:33 PM EST
Other on team #639, Red B^2, from Ithaca High School and Cornell University.
In Reply to: Actually-- less teams from last year…
Posted by colleen – T190 on 1/6/2001 7:59 PM EST:
Wow… I just assumed that FIRST would have the same bracket setup as last year (8 alliances at regionals, 16 at nationals). 40 teams out of 350 or so… that’s about… 1 team for every 8.75 teams. That’s not very many at all. 210 or so new teams. 8 less that go to finals. I think this is bad. All the other major sports leagues find it optimal to have between 25 and 50% of teams go to playoffs. Why is FIRST so much less?
I still like the idea of divisions, although I don’t like so few teams from each division.
Patrick
: actually-- the way it will work out is that there will be LESS teams in the finals at both the regionals and nationals…
: 20 teams will move on at regionals as opposed to the 24
: 40 as opposed to 48 at nationals…
: we asked Eric about this… and he said that for regionals… increasing the number of teams making to finals (remember the need for factor of 5 etc…) would make the teams needed for the finals BIGGER than the number of teams at some regionals…
: as well, at both reg and Nats adding another round of finals would lose many qualifying matches per team… this allows more playing time for all in qualifying…
: --colleen
Posted by bill whitley at 1/6/2001 11:05 PM EST
Student on team #70, Auto City Bandits, from Powers Catholic High School and Kettering University.
In Reply to: Actually-- less teams from last year…
Posted by colleen – T190 on 1/6/2001 7:59 PM EST:
I think we have another legitamate problem with this years competition. As the size of FIRST grows, the number of teams who qualify for the finals should grow as well. It is very dishearting year after to year to not make the finals. Now we are down to 40, instead of 48. How difficult would it have been for the top 4 from each region to qualify for the finals as their own alliance, then we have 80 teams in the finals. Which is probably closer to somewhere around 1 in 5 teams. That seems to me to be a fair ratio of teams to make the finals. The qualify of competition would not diminish any by going to that number of teams. It would require more matches, but who cares! Matches are the reason for the competition, the more the better.
Bill
Posted by Andy Baker at 1/7/2001 9:23 AM EST
Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.
In Reply to: I think we got another…
Posted by bill whitley on 1/6/2001 11:05 PM EST:
I have thought about this alot since I realized that there would be less teams in the finals.
Less teams in the finals gives us more qualifying matches. More qualifying matches is FIRST’s way of battling the “luck of the draw”. If we only get a few Q matches, then bad and good luck play a big factor. The more Q matches we have, the more the real qualities of the robots are shown.
Andy B.
Posted by bill whitley at 1/7/2001 11:52 AM EST
Student on team #70, Auto City Bandits, from Powers Catholic High School and Kettering University.
In Reply to: More Q matches = more fair
Posted by Andy Baker on 1/7/2001 9:23 AM EST:
We all believe that we need more qualifying matches to make the seeding more fair. We all believe that more teams should be in the finals, (we’re at less than 10%). There isnt enough time with the current scheduling. Maybe we should move the practice rounds to Wednesday afternoon, and start qualifying matches first thing Thursday morning. Most teams fly down Wednesday morning so I don’t think this would require us miss more school/work.
Bill
Posted by Jessica Boucher at 1/7/2001 5:17 PM EST
Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.
In Reply to: maybe we should lengthen the competition
Posted by bill whitley on 1/7/2001 11:52 AM EST:
We fly down Wed night and dont get into the hotel until like 11:30-midnight. But I wouldnt mind staying longer, I’m just telling you there are teams out there that dont do that
-Jessica B, #237
>Most teams fly down Wednesday morning so I don’t think this would require us miss more school/work.
Posted by Kate T190 at 1/7/2001 8:16 PM EST
Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.
In Reply to: maybe we should lengthen the competition
Posted by bill whitley on 1/7/2001 11:52 AM EST:
In high school, it was totally awesome missing school… The more days missed, the better…
But now that I’m in college, it’s amazing how much difference one day makes for classes… While I know that teams sponsored by colleges and universities are a minority still in this competition, it still makes a difference… There is only 1 non-student on our team… We’re all high school, college, or grad school with one faculty advisor… It’d be really rough on our team if competition was extended another day… Especially since our high school is only a junior / senior high school where everyone (80 students or so) goes to competitions… And their senior year is equivalent to being a freshman at WPI… That’s a lot of our team…
T190 XO
Kate