Question about 1114's Climb

I have been very intrigued with 1114’s robot and how much they can score so little time. Although i was looking at a match video and i was curios about the way they climb. When i watched this video(http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62472321) it looked like they were still touching the ground when they went up with their hook and had contacted the second level (specifically the vertical corner bar before leaving the ground) I’m assuming i am missing something on how this is not illegal, from what i understand in the rules i thought you had to go in sequential order and not contact more than two zones at one time. Can somebody clear this up for me? Here is another video but its not as clear. (http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62472528)

They are grabbing the corners of level 1, the horizontal poles, never contacting the vertical poles until their bellypan hits it.

It appears their arm “bottom’s out” on the corner before pulling down on the horizontal poles, rather than hitting the corner pole in level 2.

Thats what i assumed in the second video before i saw the first one, but it looks like when extends out they rotates to grab it looks like it hit the vertical bar??? Specifically at 1:56, their arm seems to just stop as it swings toward the pryramid like it hits that vertical pipe.

The pics from this post shows their climber in greater detail. You can see that its impossible for the arm to touch higher, the arm will always touch to corner first and prevent anything else from from touching above. Even then, there is not much above the hooks that could remotely touch the vertical bar.

First of all that is one awesome robot. But it does seem to violate G23-1A since the 54 cylinder is relative to the robot when contacting the pyramid. (At least the way I read the rule.) Obviously the refs & inspectors at Waterloo have a different interpretation & they are the ones with a vote.

You can easily see what is happening at the end of this video

What? I don’t see how it does…relative to the robot means thatthe robot,in SOME orientation,must be in a 54" cylinder…I would day it definitely does stay in the cylinder.

The robot doesn’t even leave starting configuration until its on the pyramid, and then it extends in the same direction as their robot’s longest dimension, which for the purposes of the cylinder can be pointed “up”. This is one of the most compliant climbers in FIRST, probably even meeting the old “floor relative” 54" cylinder in addition to the relatively new “whatever orientation you want” 54" cylinder.

As I understand the rule, as long the robot will fit into 54 inch cylinder it is legal when you are touching your pyramid. Again this is one of those rules that is hard to call on the fly.

As announced in Team Update 2013-01-18, there was a FRC blog post that clarified the intent of the addition of G23-1 in Team Update 2013-01-21.

If you can put any 54” right cylinder with a height of 84” around the robot, in any orientation, at any moment while it is climbing, and no part of the robot is more than 54” away from the base of the pyramid, your robot does not violate the new rules.

This was also answered in Q/A 184

Q. Per G23-1, is it legal if a robot climbs the corner of the pyramid (robot frame is parallel to the corner bar), and extends an appendage towards the second rung for a total distance of 70 inches? http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1216338&postcount=66 has a good picture of this.
2013-01-16 by FRC0578
A. The purpose of this forum is to clarify Rules. We will not use it to declare strategies or designs unequivocally legal as there are factors in play beyond this forum. The 54 in. cylinder is not fixed to a specific reference point on the ROBOT when the ROBOT is contacting the PYRAMID. In other words, if a 54 in. right cylinder with a height of 84 in. could, in at least one orientation, fit around the ROBOT, the ROBOT is in compliance with [G23-1]-A.

Blog post are not the rules (As Frank (not me the other Frank)) has said.

The rule says

G23-1
A) While in contact with the PYRAMID, a ROBOT may not have its horizontal dimensions exceed a 54 in. diameter vertical cylinder relative to the ROBOT and
B) may not extend any part of itself beyond a vertical plane defined by a perimeter offset from the base of the PYRAMID by 54 in., see Figure 3-5b and Figure 3-5c.

I would read that the cylinder stays normal to the robot along with horizontal & vertical dimensions. Fig 3-5c shows the cylinder rotating with robot. The Q&A clearly gives a different interpretation. The judges at Waterloo obviously went the Q&A answer. I am good with that I just wanted other peoples opinion.

IIRC, the Q&A is an official source, and can be used as a ‘rule’ per say.

  • Sunny G.

An answer from Q&A about the order of precedence. By definition the Referees are the final deciders at any event. Really as it should be. Q&A is last on the list.

1.)What is the order of precedence for the following rule authorities in the case of contradiction: Head Ref, Manual, Team Update, Q&A, FIRST HQ? 2.) If the head ref has higher precedence than Q&A, is Q&A to be interpreted as rule or as guideline?
FRC0639 on 2013-03-20 | 2 Followers
A. 1) The Game Manual is the authority. Referees are empowered to make judgments about game play per the Manual and any clarification via the Q&A and other input from event staff and FRC. 2) The Q&A is a tool for clarification about rules and/or the intent behind the rules. Any ambiguity or disconnect between the Manual and the Q&A is unintended and the Manual takes precedence.

This climber is definitely compliant with the 54" cylinder rule with both the old and new interpretation.

In addition, it does not touch the vertical pole in zone 2. When you see it up close it is very obvious.

This climb is ridiculous when you see it up close. Very fluent, very stable … just plain awesome.

FrankJ,

I get your point, but there is no ambiguity here (as implied from the order of precedence Q&A). Frank (FRC Director) stated in a blog post the intent of the rule change. In addition, the Q&A question and answer quote above made it perfectly clear that an 84" high 54" diameter right circular cylinder can be put in any orientation around your robot while it is climbing. The 1114 robot is within both a vertical cylinder and the one rotated in their favor (along the vertical pole).