Our rookie team is still in its design phase and with the importance of climbing, such as the case in past years, we have a question posed by more experienced teams. If we want to build and include the ability to climb from the center rung position what are the chances in a match that the alliance partners are going to feel like they are comfortable with allowing us to do so as a rookie team?
Knowing how older teams think about this question and their response will help us better understand if we should concentrate on the climbing mechanism or maybe change our approach to building a rampbot ability instead. Thanks, for any consideration this question may be shown! Good Luck this season and our team is very excited to participate!
Because of the lack of space on that middle rung, there are going to be many discussions over who should occupy the space. The best thing you can do for yourself is a build a climber that does not impede other climbers or could work with ramp bot partner.
Teams are going to feel more comfortable letting a rookie take on an important role like climbing center if you can prove that you can do it early on. And the best way to prove that is to do it in your practice matches or on the practice field.
As a rookie team, if you feel comfortable with climbing, definitely pursue it, so long as it works. If you feel the need to prove yourself, hit up the practice fields at competitions to show off.
Rampbot is dead… they updated the rules and explicitly stated that you cannot be touching the platform for a climb. I’d also refrain from overanalyzing the new rule and just follow the cheese touch rule… you only get it by association. I believe that the host bot must be supported by the rungs to allow others to climb on the bot.
LAST THING…(this is hypothetical) If it is other teams feeling comfortable with your robots abilities that you are worried about, I believe a rampbot approach would be worse. This would make you accountable for other teams’ robots as they are supported by your’s.
Again, if it works and you are confident in your design, go for it. FIRST is about innovation, and veterans are very supportive of rookie teams. Know your limits, but be sure to push it to those limits.
Good luck, I’ll be rooting for you!
I agree- if it works and you are the only climber they would let you do it. If it works better and more reliably based on scouting data than their climber- they would let you do it. If it is faster and more reliable they would let you do it. Veteran teams should be making those decisions based on data, not on years of experience.
However, if a rookie team attempted a climber, was not successful and neglected some easier tasks it may not be in your teams best interest. Based on your resources- a reliable, fast, and strong switch/vault robot with a skilled driver will be useful in the end game also.
Michigan doesn’t benefit from a practice day. Typically I’d say make sure you’re making practice matches and show that it works there so you’d have leverage going into match planning.
In your situation you’re just going to have to prove it works on the field when given the opportunity. The more you show it off the more opportunities you’ll be afforded. Try to remember its not a factor of team age, its the fact that your robot is an unknown to other teams (goes both ways) and they will always think their solution is better until you prove otherwise.
At the Michigan State Championships, we picked a rookie team because they were good with gears and a reliable climber, and we were able to get them enough district points to qualify to worlds with it! (I actually was really impressed with them because they climbed with just 1 mini-cim, so they had the mechanical knowledge and gearing spot on)
Alliance selection teams will notice and pick you as long as you are successful and reliable with whatever you choose to do (and compliments their alliance). Experience is not a requirement for selection.
Generally speaking (whether or not this is how it should work) teams are generally evaluated based on how the mechanism or overall robot looks. A lot of the time this directly correlates to the experience of the team – more experienced teams tend to have better looking robots. Not always, but generally.
Personally, I would more readily trust a robot with a machine-cut aluminum-bodied climber that uses nice shiny new parts over a robot with a climber made out of wood and lexan that had been cut with a hacksaw and nailed together, wouldn’t you? It’s not always the greatest indication of a robot’s function (some really rough looking robots can still be great), but in a day where a scouting/drive team sees 50+ robots, not everyone has time to see the thing in action.
If you’re looking to climb, just make sure you voice that to other teams when you’re preparing for matches. You’d probably be surprised how many people will given you a chance. It would probably improve your odds to only hang on half of the rung/the side of the rung as well – as compared to last year, people will be relatively more picky about who climbs due to the fact that most the the time there will probably only be one climbing robot.
I would encourage you to choose a rampbot over a climbing robot though! Not only do you not back yourselves into a corner if something goes wrong with your ramps (someone else can still climb assuming the ramps don’t fail on the scale platform), but being able to help two other people ‘climb’ is a super marketable skill for alliance selections, given that ramps are relatively easier to build than a climber.
For me, team age doesn’t matter. I’ve seen veteran teams with 10+ years under their belt go from division playoffs at champs one year to sitting dead in half their matches the next. Turn over of mentors and students, loss of a key sponsor or build space… there’s a lot that can dramatically change how a team performs from one year to the next.
And I’ve seen some amazing rookie teams.
For me, it’s all about an evaluation of the individual robots. Get out on the field and demonstrate that you can climb successfully and reliably. Use that hard data to back up your claims, and have a good scouting team that can track how often other teams attempt and succeed/fail at climbing.
Short answer is yes. During qualifications, climbing will most times be the decider of who wins the match. When it comes time for alliance selections, even if you can’t place power cubes in the scale, a robot that can place a power cube in the switch and climb consistently is very attractive to teams that can’t climb or climb as consistently.
Now if you decide to go with a rampbot that can accommodate one or two robots you become even more attractive and could quite possibly end up picking in alliance selections if you rack up those climbing RPs.
Team update 1 does not rule out rampbots. The criteria for a climb are shown in Table 4-1. These criteria require that a robot not be in direct contact with the platform. So the rampbot itself could not count as climbing, but another robot (or two) climbing on top of that rampbot would count, as long as they meet all other criteria. Because the platform is part of the scale, being fully supported by the platform without being in direct contact with it is acceptable.
For each ROBOT fully supported by the SCALE (either directly or transitively) with BUMPERS fully above the BRICKS at T=0, not in direct contact with their PLATFORM, and not at all in the opponent’s PLATFORM ZONE
Back on topic - I want a reliable climber to be climbing, whether it’s a rookie or a veteran team. Your best bet if you want to climb, as others have said, is to get it reliable and be able to show in practice matches or on the practice field that you can climb consistently.
Thank you ALL for the feedback and please keep it coming.
Auton:
We are going to move in Auton at the least to allow for the 5 points there and we are going to place a conveyor belt on the top of the bot to place a cube in the switch if we are lined up properly and monitor the FMS to read which side is which at the start of the match.
Teleop:
Our robot thus far is designed as a vault bot that can take all of the cubes and get from the Power Cube pyramid and place into the exchange as fast as possible. This will be done with a simple floor pickup that uses traction wheels to bring in and spit out the cubes with a Teflon pan under the cube to minimalize traction on the cube.
End Game:
Build a Climbing Mechanism (still under development)
Something to consider when making a robot that can do a double or triple climb is that you need to make it work very good or don’t make it at all. As a rookie team this may be hard to do but you want to think of what is in your teams limits. If you believe you can do this task and do it well then go for it! So long as it works well and you can prove it I think teams will trust you.
Ramp bot is not dead. You need to take another look at the rules.
The change wasn’t made to stop ramp bots (they’re very much encouraged in the rules).
The change was meant to change some ambiguity. Prior, you had two options to “climb” that are now eliminated. If you flipped, your bumpers would be more than 12" above the ground and satisfy the definition. Similarly, if you flipped on your side you had the luxury of the 16" distance being except in ENDGAME. Both of those counted as a climb by letter of the law.
There’s nothing mentioned about transitive in the new rule. The bot climbing the ramp still gets credit for the climb.
Solid plan. Try to find time for your programming team to work out bugs over the next 6 weeks, and also for your drivers to get familiar with the machine. Consistency and experienced drivers will take you far. Congrats on making it this far and good luck the rest of the way.
Just wanted to point out (since this is a thread for a rookie team) that ramp bots ARE allowed after the first update. The ruling changes to specify that you yourself cant find a way to “climb” while still on the ground (ex: flipping your robot over so that your bumpers are technically above 12", or climbing with a string attached to ramps on the ground). Having a ramp or 2 come off of you however will still allow your teammates to get climbs since they are not touching the carpet (the specify in the wording of it between transitive and direct contact for both roles).
And furthermore as a veteran team I feel we would be much more likely to trust a rookie teams ramp than try to climb off of them, assuming that there is reason to be worried in the first place when looking at your robot. Generally experienced teams can get a good feel for whether you’ve built your concepts robust enough that they’d trust it to hold their robot. And so you team requirement for going with that design should be that it works 100% of the time. If it falls even once, teams will notice, and could be likely that no one trusts it after that, so make sure you test it, test it, test it. As much as you can possibly do so and make that thing something every team looks forward to hanging off of
Congratulations, you just thought along much the same lines as a 15-year veteran team that’s overreached in the past.
I don’t know if I’d make it a design priority because I don’t know your resources, but look for ways where you could make this robot score in the switch from the ground as well–it would save a considerable amount of time after you complete the vault or in a crunch situation where you need to use power cubes elsewhere fast. It may not happen, and that’s okay–just seize the opportunity if it comes along!
Our thoughts about the conveyor on the top would be we could get a cube form the exchange or portal and use the conveyor motor to place into the switch. This could also be done with coding in the Auton phase!
Couple things I will add think about vision lines for the Climb and be ready for traffic in endgame…its hard enough climbing when not contested on your spot. In this game there may be two other bots possibly trying to climb as well… there may be ramp bots so think about how you may interface with them.
Teams will not just let you empty the pyramid , so expect possibly a lot of defense on you with that strategy. Those cubes are protected until you remove them then fair game…you can bet they want you to unprotect those cubes.
If you do what you say you earned your climb with Levitate, having a plan B a possible physical climb is good.
Most of all don’t overreach and do what you will well, be prepared for a robot to slam into you to prevent what you are planning so tighten down everything and secure those cubes. Don’t break and have spare parts. There are few protected for you areas on the field so be aware of that and prepared for that, I expect this to be a fairly rough game physically with impacts.
