QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! [01-20-01]

FIRST Rumor Mill
1

Hi all. Been extremely busy with my teams this year, and arranging details to get back to school, and doing the newsletter. Sorry for not replying to people’s e-mail or PM’s. Anyway, while I was going from team to team, I faced some trouble when they ask me, "What are the other teams doing?¡¨ I found myself hesitating when answering that question, because I don’t want to leak teams’ secret design to others, especially since this year is so much different from last year… With that in mind, here’s the question of the week…

**QUESTION 01/20/01: ** How important is secrecy this year?

Using an old question from the master… :wink:

Did you hesitate like me when you talk to others? Do you feel bad about keeping trade secret? If it’s FIRST’s spirit to share your knowledge, should there be secrecy between teams at all?

2

i think keeping a robot design is part of all the fun of FIRST. I don’t like to know what everyone is doing. but on the other hand, i would like to know what some of the robots look like. like the big name teams technokats, chief delphi, wildstang, hammond, hot bot, truck town terror… and so on (those are just a few examples. i’m not just saying those are the only good teams). those teams are our biggest competition and it’s always exciting to see what kind of cool systems they come up with.

one thing i noticed on here is that a lot of the rookie teams are just comming out and saying exactly what they’re doing and the vetrans are pretty reserved about it.

so i say that i’m pretty much split 50-50

3

I’m not so sure I’ve been sold on this whole secrecy idea. When I talk with other teams, I don’t always voulenteer everything about the design. If they ask, however, I tell them. I tend to lean to the honesty side of this whole debate.

Really: I think that if people would stop keeping secrets, not just in FIRST but everywhere in life, people would find it much easier to co-operate and learn. Isn’t the point of FIRST to inspire? Winning is great, BUT, that is not the sole way to inspire one’s self. Last year I was on a rookie team. We seeded some 42nd out of 50. Not too great. Was I inspired? Heck yes! I’m back this year! Plese note, I’m not trying to say that winning isn’t a good goal. I’m am saying, however, that using winning as a goal to the detriment of the goal of inspiration is wrong.

I urge those of you who support secrecy to think back to your first few years of FIRST Robotics. How did you learn what you know now? Do you honestly believe everyone should (pardon the cliche) “Re-Invent The Wheel?”

Yike, this is starting to turn in to a rant, so I had better stop there! Anyone intrested in talking FIRST Philosophy with me? :wink: Regardless, this should be one of the most intresting threads to hit CD in a while. We’ll see.

Just An Opinion…

4

My peronal opinion is that secrecy can be a very good thing before the regionals start. It gives you a little advantage that you might not have otherwise. Once the robot is “out of the box” so to speak, I’m all for explaining the robot design to anyone who is interested. It’s not likely that anyone will copy your design at that point, and it can help other teams in the future.

5

I agree with Jeff. I would like to keep things secret till after the building phase is done.
Would Team CyberBlue have gotten the Inovation award if they had told everyone about there arm operating system? Or would there be other teams building the same system? I would like to think other teams would not have copied the design. But you never know.
You got to think outside of the box. You can’t do that if you copy other designs. So lets keep out secrets :smiley:

Wayne Doenges

6

I feel secrecy is very important. We used to call it the “veil of secrecy”… Teams who come up with innovative designs and find loopholes in the rules (like the robot flipper) will benefit by keeping it to themselves… Some collaboration between veterans and rookies is important to help the newbie teams… but I feel details and strategies should not be shared (except quick teases to make the competition drool).
I recently spent the weekend with my old team, and it was cool to look at their designs and strategies, however I wouldn’t feel comfortable sharing these with my current team. (yay Clarkson!)

Long winded opinion summed up in a phrase…
There are some things you share, and some things you don’t.:o

I’ve been doing some drive designs in my notebook, and while I do wish I’d taken a closer look at CD6’s drive while I was at UTC last year, I kind of enjoy figuring things out for myself. What’s the fun in having all your designs handed to you?

If all teams came together and shared, we’d have several GOD-bots out there, the best of everything, combined into one.

Before kickoff I was thinking how cool it would be if FIRST completely leveled the playing field. Imagine a game in which there are no drivesystems 7 years (or more) in the making. Everyone is required to build stationary robots, that once placed before the match cannot be moved… ahh well, just an idea…

JVN
Strategy Head
Team 229 - Clarkson University

7

I feel its cool to talk about what you’re going to do, or plan to be able to do, but not you’re how you’re going to do it.

So, saying: ‘Our team will be able to handle all three goals, pick up 40 small balls and fork lift every bot on the field.’ would be fine in my book. Probably a bit of an embellishment, but that’s perfectly legal.

Saying how you do all those things in explicit mechanical detail, would not only give away your clever design, but also possibly influence other teams ideas when they go to work out their designs. So not only do you give away your strengths and weaknesses, but you might weaken the creative process on other teams. I have no problem with a rookie team realizing that it is possible to move 3 goals, just so long as they have to figure out how to do it on their own.

No messing with the evolutionary process of a teams build. Call it the Prime Directive or something like that ;).

-Andy A.

8

I think that secrecy is pretty important in the early stages of development because at that point all teams are searching for ideas and better ways to do things.

As things move along, and designs start to gell and “FREEZE”, then secrecy regarding design is less important since other teams would probably have a tough time makeing changes or adding features and mechanisms to their designs.

Once we get to the competition, the only secrets that are interesting are those of actual capability and stratigy. I mean, we might “say” that we can gather balls while towing three goals, but how well do we actually work might be a separate matter.

So, the idea and imprtance of secrecy is a moving target as things progress.

-Quentin :smiley:

9

I like secrecy until the robots ship (or the last day or two before shipping). Even then, I don’t think everyone should post all of their drawings, but letting people know what they do is good.

After everyone attends one competition, it’s hard to keep anything secret, but nobody can really make a complete robot change at that point anyway, so I’m pretty open once the regionals begin. I won’t give out our drawings, but I will explain things to people.

To me, this is a competition. The fact that it is a competition is what makes it fun and it is what motivates me. If everyone shared everything up front, it changes from a competition into an exhibition. If FIRST became simply an exhibition, I would find other activities to be involved in.

10

When designing and building a robot, I believe it is in everyone’s best interest to keep your design, and the strategy that your design is built around (if applicable) to yourself. Otherwise, there will be too many similar/identical teams.

However, from the time the robot ships to the first regional until kick-off next year, I believe everyone should be free to learn how your robot works and why you designed it as you did. This will only improve the competition for next year, without removing any of the originality or creativity that makes FIRST exciting to watch (even in years when the scoring system is too confusing and there is no head-to-head competition). Only when teams are open can you truly learn how their robot best fits with your robot (ok, watching helps too). But during the design phase is not the appropriate time, IMHO.

11

I find that if people ask, why not go right ahead and tell them… I mean, if you have a designed a system that is so innovative, usually it won’t come up in the conversation…

Besides, people often tend to think whatever they are making is better…

So there!!

12

Secrets? bah!

Everything’s been done, been theorized, or is merely a modification of something else. Dean Kamen’s inventions are like that as well. They’re not breakthroughs that will change mankind like say the transistor, when it was first invented.

So as for secrecy, just give me a clue of what you’re attempting to do, and i’ll probably figure it out as well. No big. It just takes time.

On the other hand, if you somehow manage to invent something that’s out of this world with the kit of parts, my hats to ya!

-anton

13

I beleive that the secrecy thing is very important as an attribute of the FIRST Competition. A main part is strategy and how you will be able to properly develop one with your alliance in a short amount of time with little forehand knowledge on what they are able to do.
In my team (DART #481) we keep our secrets in silence.
Ja ne!

14

What’s my opinion? It’s a secret…LOL

Seriously though, I believe secrecy is important to strategy. That way, no one can specifically plot against your own strategy by putting some adjustment on their robot. At regionals, you have to use what you put on your robot and improvise from there.

15

i am my team’s strategist
If u ask me about my robot, i wouldn’t hesitate to tell u what it can do, though I wouldn’t tell u how it does it.

Think about it. Even though it is different this year, knowing ur opponent’s features if good for both of u because u not only wanna get more point than them, but u want them to get as many points as possible too (of course less than ur own though)

if anyone needs any help with strategy, don’t hesitate because this is my job.
my mail is
[email protected]
PUNAR

16

There were a couple of other similar threads about this type of thing. I tend to be of the mind that sharing strategies can do no harm, but not sharing strategies is perfectly within GP.

I doubt that any team will significantly change its strategy due to something it read on CD. And any little tweak that they do make might lower a single team’s advantage, but it will raise the overall level of gameplay.

17

*Originally posted by verdeyw *
I’m gonna get a map of the world, and put thumbtacks on all the places I’ve visited. But first I’m gonna have to visit the top two corners of the map.
-Mitch Hedberg

That is the coolest qute that I have ever seen!! lol

Anyways back to secrecy, I believe this year that there will be (or is it should be?) alot more secrecy than last year. The reason for this is the return of head to head competition. Last year you shared what you were doing cause it helped your alliance. No one was there to counter-act on what you were doing. This year I see more secrecy as you do not know who will be watching what you say or post for that matter.

I agree with my fellow team-mate OtakuRob that if your design is so inovative then it won’t come up in conversation unless you bring it up… Bad idea in my opinion!! :cool:

Also please people, don’t copy what someone else is doing just cause you heard about it or read about it in a post, do it because you want to do it for the good of the game, and/or the good of your alliance.

<thinks to self> “can you copyright a robot idea and/or design??? hmmmm…??” </thinks to self>:cool:

18

Hello All,

I have a few things to say about secrecy and FIRST and how it has evolved. When I started FIRST back in 1996 the competition was setup in a manner where every robot was for themselves. Competition in these days was very feirce then focus was on winning. There were no forums, no chats, teams were their own entity. You went to competitions and didn’t talk to anyone, teams would sit in their own circles and talk amongst themsevles. Strategies and designs were gaurded extremely closely. To the point where very careful thought was given to letting other teams into our facility to use the practice field. At this point my FIRST friends were made up from those on my team.

Fast forward to about 2000/1. Basically there was on such thing as secrecy in 2001 teams were pretty liberal about sharing their designs, cordinating strategies, etc. Teams are always talking in the pit, helping each other out, I have numerous FIRST friends, the FIRST community is more connected and open than ever.

I think the shift to a 2v2 style game has brought the FIRST community together in a way…and we shouldn’t for get that. But we should aslo remember that this year’s game is not last year’s game. Teams will have to use their own judgement with what they share and other teams will have to respect that.

-Justin

19

Elgin -

Mitch Hedberg is, IMHO, the funniest comedian that I’ve ever seen. His humor is a kind of stoner combination of Steven Wright and Jack Handey.

Check out his website: www.mitchhedberg.net

Beware! There are some RealAudio clips on the site that, while hilarious, might contain language unsuitable for someone who has never been to a PG-13 movie.

And remember, you should never tell someone that they have a nice dimple, because maybe they were shot in the face with a BB gun.

20

Well, I’m half and half. I think sharing of ideas can be good and bad. On one hand, it really brings out some of the ideals and values of FIRST. On the other hand, there’s the chance of Super-Alliances to form if teams share info and collaborate ahead of time. For anyone who was there in 2000, there were a good handful of those. Whether or not they coordinated in advance, I dont know. But darn it, if they didnt whoop some serious robutt (eww… lame pun).

Then again, I have always been up for sharing info with other teams. When I was on 108, I was held back by the team, however. And friends on our sister team would usually get me to share my info, and I remember them sharing faulty info with me. Well, at least she claimed it was going to be implemented, but taken out of the design at the last moment… darn FIRST girls…

Anyone remember sharingFIRST? It’s still going strong, as far as I know, but it hasn’t been mentioned much. When it started in 2000, I applied and won in a tie with Gael Force. This is that site:

http://sharingfirst.mit.edu/users/oshortwan/FRC2000page/

If anyone who was on team 108 at that time and is reading this now, they remember the verbal abuse I got about that - even though I did ask and credited the engineers who designed it. What happened when we won that award? There was much rejoicing. Yay.

So in conclusion, I think sharing information in advance can be useful. But as we all saw with the Segway, it can also be quite the headache. Each team should make up thier own minds about what they want to do. Besides, for anyone who knows me, the Kickoff is my Mecca - I drove up from Florida this year. So that would make Nationals and Regionals like Christmas to me.

It always has been, and always will be the time I have the biggest grin on my face. Oh, that and when I’m standing next to Kamen, Flowers, or any other major FIRST-head. I know, I know, fanboy extreme. Dont worry, I havent finished my FIRST trading cards or Dean and Woody action figures yet…

-Robby O
FIRSTanimators Moderator
[email protected]