Ramp bots probably won’t work and here’s why


#21

With the last wheels hanging off the edge, it will be a wild ride for whoever tries the clmb


#22

Then don’t be that long


#23

A thought that came from tonight’s 857 strategy meeting, dual robowrangling.


#24

Three of the latest four [different] FRC scale robots I built or helped build were less than 24" long (the most recent 15.3") - all four on a KoP chassis. One of the things I was explicitly considering was making sure the ramp was at/above 7" above the L1 platform at the back edge of the bumper lumber.


#25

Its going to be real weird if you show up to competition and start losing to ramp bots…


#26

I’m thinking more get good at low hatch/cargo and leave enough space that you can make a “jack” to lift other bots to the point that they can then drive onto the platform.


#27

According to The Blue Alliance, during qual matches, there was a 8.77% success rate for facing the boss. During playoffs it was 18.34%… I’m guessing it will be similar this year.


#28

I expect it to be somewhat higher, because last year you had to have two robots climb by pulling on a rung which was only big enough for one robot to easily get a good grip, or supported by another robot. This year, one robot on L3 and one on L1 will do it. While the single L3 climb is clearly harder than a single robot climb was last year, it doesn’t seem as difficult as the double or triple climb last year.


#29

Please make sure you let 2007 Team 27 know that they can’t do both a ramp and a claw.

The make sure you let Team 71 know in 2007 (world champ finalist). They had dual ramps, plus swerve and a hilo.

After that, go find 469 from 2007 and let them know. Then go find 469 from 2010 and let them know that a robot that doesn’t move after auto will never win a match…

Then go find the 2008 team from 148 and tell them they’ll never make it to Einstein if they can’t score balls.

I’ll admit these aren’t all ramp examples, but all snark aside, if you’re going to make a statement I’d like to see some data. Some time studies of points, rank points, how they break down, and what the other options are, what the trade offs are. Otherwise, we’re all just arguing baseless opinions. I have history on my side proving that you can do amazing things with a little creativity and talent. What are your data points?


#30

Blockquote @GeeTwo “I expect it to be somewhat higher, because last year you had to have two robots climb by pulling on a rung which was only big enough for one robot to easily get a good grip, or supported by another robot. This year, one robot on L3 and one on L1 will do it. While the single L3 climb is clearly harder than a single robot climb was last year, it doesn’t seem as difficult as the double or triple climb last year.”

How “somewhat” are you thinking? A percentage or two? I agree. 10%? Probably not. I think that getting up on top of level 3 is comparable to building an effective lift last year. (Well actually I think it will be harder, but only marginally). So if it’s just as hard, the same or less teams will attempt it, as the benefit is about as high.

Now, for fun, lets look at Strong Hold. For Quals, they had a climb rate of about 5%. I think that’s quite low. The benefits of climbing Strong Hold was far lower than this year and last, despite its relative ease. Playoffs was 11%. I’m quite frankly surprised how low both those numbers are, but it shows you that ease has nothing to do with how often teams do something, but benefit.

Now, i’m going to make the bold argument that playoffs with be only slightly higher than quals. My reasoning is that, because the RP goes away, much of the benefit of doing the level 3 climb goes away. I suspect that 12 points will still be better than spending that 30 seconds doing cargo, however I don’t think its worth more than spending most of the time doing cargo than last minute getting on level 2. Getting 6 points for level 2 means you only have to get 2 cargo in the time it would normally take you to climb, and I suspect most teams in playoffs will be able to do 2 cargo in 30 ish seconds. Plus I bet getting 2 cargo in 30 seconds is more reliable than most teams climbs.


#31

@jlmcmchl im sorry but you cant do this.

While i agree that ramps may be viable, just saying that past examples for games with different game elements/points values doesnt show that its viable for this instance specifically. Arguably, your point is baseless too without any objective data points.


#32

857 had double ramps and an elevator in 2018. We made it to worlds. (We didn’t account for CoG being higher on high tier bots, so our ramps couldn’t lift them, but it was awesome at districts). As did 4905. There will be room for ramp and mech.


#33

I was thinking ~12-15% in quals. Not sure how much higher in elims, because there is no extra bump at 15 points.


#34

It is possible to get the climbing RP without a robot on the top level, by getting two robots to level two, and one on the bottom. Therefore, a robot with two ramps, to get their alliance members up to the second level would work as well.

However, the design restrictions make this impossible without insane luck in your alliance members.


The max width of your ramp is 26-3/4", (30" extension - 3-1/4" bumpers), which is already smaller than many wheel bases, but you also lose another bumper width from their bumpers. In order to create a ramp that you alliance can climb, their wheel base needs to be less than 23" wide, and they need to be able to climb your ramp. Getting two alliance members who can in Quals will be more or less impossible.

This does not preclude a single ramp to get a bot to the top, I’m still doing the math on that one.


#35

Yup. Just went through this math with my team yesterday. The geometry of it make it incredibly low probability that an abundance of robots will have robots narrow enough to fit on a ramp like this.

That’s also assuming that their robot can align perfectly to drive up the ramp with their bumpers perfectly aligned with/touching your bumpers. In reality, their robot would probably be 1-3" away from your robot, reducing the possible robot dimensions even more.


#36

I had faith in this idea, until I looked at dimensions. But if someone pulls it off, good luck!


#37

Why do you say that the rocket cannot be completed in early weeks?


#38

It may get completed, but it will probably be a rare occurrence until teams reach their peak near district champs and worlds.


#39

what if a robot were to setup from the side of level 2?


#40

For the side ramps, still a no-go. The ramp simply cannot be wide enough for most teams without breaking the extension rules.