Red Card? - Finger Lakes Regional 2023 - Team 1450 & 3015

FIRST General Forum
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Hello Everyone!

I have concerns about Qualification 15 for 2023 Finger Lakes Regional. Team 1450 receives a questionable red card from this match. I would like to know what you all think of this, whether its reasonable or complete BS.

Here are some videos to look into:

Around 45 seconds of this video:
Qualification 15 - 2023 Finger Lakes Regional

Note: There’s a cone in the ground behind Head Ref in that video view.

For details,
Team 1450 was attempting to intake cones. It fails to grab one from one of the staging marks. Then it tries to get the next cone. However, while Team 1450 was trying to get the next cone, Team 3015 completely ramped into Team 1450. From my standpoint of standing in the blue alliance area, it’s completely unexpected and quick.

Team 3015 bumper contacted into Team 1450 chassis. Then, Team 3015 was supposedly disabled, while Team 1450 tried to escape the situation. From my understanding Team 3015 have its wire cut (?) while the ~18in support bars of Team 1450 were taken off.

At the end of the match, Team 1450 got a red card, while Team 3015 just got a foul. From what I hear, Team 1450 damaged Team 3015, even though both took damage. Team 1450 did take quite some time afterward in Pit to repair the support bar that runs through the middle of the robot.

In my opinion, a red card is completely unreasonable because Team 1450 was just trying to pick up the cone. However, Team 3015, even though that robot could have moved out of the way pretty easily, ramp right into Team 1450 arms.

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Stage View

Here is a video with different view.

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I think it comes down to G205. 3015 was clearly impaired, as they didn’t move the remainder of the match. The only non-bumper contact that I see is between an extension of 1450 and components inside the frame perimeter of 3015.

So, it comes down to a question of “initiate contact”. The blue box states:

For the purposes of this rule, “initiating contact” requires movement towards an opponent ROBOT.

In a collision, it’s possible for both ROBOTS to initiate contact.

So, was there “movement towards” 3015 by 1450? The depends on what you consider movement. Certainly I think we can all agree that the drive train was stationary. However, within 1 second prior to the contact 1450 dropped its intake towards 3015. Even with a stationary robot, this decreased the distance between the two robots and shifted the center of gravity in the direction of 3015. I can see a reasonable interpretation that would say that constitutes “movement towards”.

It’s an unfortunate situation, but I think the refs, in general, are going to err on the side of penalizing robot disablement.

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You 100% should not have gotten a red card for this. I am sorry that that is the experience you had.

The problem seems to be that the ref looked back at the interaction in front of them after 3015 initiated contact. Though even then I am not sure that makes sense as 3015 is clearly the aggressor even after they start watching.

I don’t think this outcome is what 3015 was looking for out of this interaction either, they might have just been trying to setup to swing back from the cone behind them.

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100%???
Robot inside robot, seems a pretty clear penalty.
Disabled robot likely unintentional however when you have a devise working outside your bumpers, you increase the opportunity to “enter” another robot perimeter.

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No its not. G205 requires the offending robot to initiate contact. In the video, 1450 drops their intake to intake a cone and than 3015 drives right into 1450 (who is stationary while intaking the cone). There is no way in which 1450 initiated contact in this interaction. This should not have resulted in a g205 call based on the rule.

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Hi! 3015 student here.
Our CAN network was cut in an incredibly hard to reach area. I believe regardless of who initiated contact - they reached inside our frame perimeter, and we were impaired for the remainder of the match. Maybe it’s team bias, but when one robot walks away and the other is stuck and dead, it’s hard to argue that it shouldn’t be a red card.

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We did initiate contact. Driver wanted to pick up that cone and 1450 was in the way so pushing them out of the way with bumper to bumper contact was the best way to do so. Unfortunately, their intake made contact in our frame perimeter and ripped out a CAN wire.

I don’t think this should have been a card after watching again, but on the other hand if your intake is out during robot to robot contact and you end up doing some damage to the other robot, it’s going to be really hard for refs to see what was actually going on and make the right call. This all happens so quick.

I really don’t like this rule to begin with, 1450 gets punished with a red card for damage to us that obviously isn’t intentional, but that does nothing for the team left dead on the field and their alliance partners that are now left in a 2v3 for the rest of the match.

I’m probably not great at designing rules and I’m sure first has their reasons for this rule, but I feel like my dream result for a call like this would be a yellow card for the offending team to deter intentional damage, then a replay of the match. Obviously that would lead to a lot more replays, but it really sucks for all robots on the alliance with a dead robot when unintentional damage like this happens. Just my 2 cents.

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I am speaking solely on my own view and opinions of the situation here. I do not know what our drive team or the reffing crew was thinking or doing throughout this interaction. This is not meant to show criticism toward anyone involved.

From my vantage point, 3015 initiated contact on 1450 going for a cone in the mid-field. While doing so, 1450s arm contacted our robot in a way in which our CAN network that controls our drivetrain was cut, causing us to lose functionality throughout the match. Per the way the rules are written, in MY personal opinion, this should not have been a red card as we initiated the contact.

The refs made the decision they did, based on what they saw, and they did great all weekend and I thank every one of them for volunteering. At the end of the day, calls happen that aren’t always correct. Refs have an incredibly tough job in FRC, especially with the speed of robots increasing every season. I am not faulting anyone for this situation, the teams, or the refs. Everyone was doing their best with what they had.

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Kinda of off topic but it’s very simlar situtaion to last years finger lakes final 2 were ranger 3015 recived a red card for diasbling GRR with thier intake. While it obv dosnen’t hold the same wieght I think it’s the same call here that regradless of intent extension inside of another robot causing that robot to be disabled or badly damaged is a red card. Consitency is key when it comes to calling fouls.

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I believe regardless of who initiated contact - they reached inside our frame perimeter

Before posting a take like this, you should read the rules.

A ROBOT may not damage or functionally impair an opponent
ROBOT in either of the following ways:
A. deliberately, as perceived by a REFEREE.
B. regardless of intent, by initiating contact, either directly or transitively via a GAME PIECE
CONTROLLED by the ROBOT, inside the vertical projection of an opponent ROBOT’S
FRAME PERIMETER. Contact between the ROBOT’S BUMPERS or COMPONENTS inside
the ROBOT’S FRAME PERIMETER and COMPONENTS inside an opening of an opponent’s
BUMPERS or in the space above the BUMPER opening are exceptions to this rule.

There are two ways this rule can be called. It doesn’t sound like you believe the other team deliberately damaged your robot. If not, we can only consider option B. Option B explicitly requires “initiating contact” to result in a violation. We cannot argue “regardless of who initiated contact” when the initiation is a requirement for a violation to exist.

it’s hard to argue that it shouldn’t be a red card.

The only thing complicating this argument is we can’t see the robots with the HR blocking the view at the point of contact. I think we’d agree 1450 didn’t have a moving drive at the moment of impact. That only leaves their intake mechanism. If they were moving it down at the time of impact, both robots initiated contact and it’s reasonable to give the red card. If it was already down before 3015 drove into them, 3015 initiated the contact and there shouldn’t be a red card. From what we can see, the most probable outcome appears to be the latter.

These cards are always frustrating as there isn’t a GOOD outcome when something like this happens. No matter how it’s handled, teams are going to walk away feeling cross. There simply isn’t a way to undo things once a robot becomes disabled.

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Reading everyone’s comment. Glad to see different thoughts & opinions on this, providing me with an overall better understanding of this whole situation. Really, it can be concluded that it is rather an unfortunate situation.

As a side note, Thank you to everyone volunteering!

No hard feelings from Team 1450, they are an again rookie team (after covid hits hard and no student veteran returned) and just trying their best to participate in this competition.
Also, Team 3015 did great too, and congrats on winning Finger Lakes Regional 2023!

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