RFID - Is it a GOOD idea or a BAD idea

I wasn’t asking you to explain how RFID works. I was asking you to explain what you’re trying to accomplish. This doesn’t make sense: “have the FRC slide in a reader/antenna into a holder that is mounted to a shooter then plug it into the TCP/IP hub before each round? The teams would only have to mount the holder on thier shooter, a couple of screws they are done. Of course another reader/antenna is mounted in the Goal station.”

Are you trying to track robots? Scoring? Why is there a reader on robots and on goals? Why is the reader on the robot networked? What tags get scanned? Do the game pieces have embedded RFID tags? Could you give an example of what this system would accomplish for the 2020 game? It’s not clear from your post.

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Sure its our fault … that is the answer. We did not sit down an work out a negotiation. Let me gather those people up on our team to find out what happened… oh yeah we dont have anyone. I guess I should blame no one.

Take a break folks. Walk away from CD for a bit.

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To detail a little more about the OP, from what was gleaned from the conversation we had with them in the FUN discord, they’re frustrated that their team wasn’t picked at their event when they were one of the better power cell scorers at the event, yet didn’t have a climber. They want this data publicly available so they can, from their point of view, have a higher chance of being picked and in addition, they said they would be able to compare themselves to other teams to tell their sponsors. In response, we explained how component OPR told us that while yes, they were a solid shooter, their lack of climb made them 25th at the event in total scoring, and that their lack of a climber was a big reason they went unpicked. Also, we explained that most sponsors (save for IFI and a few select others) don’t care about how many power cells you scored compared to 2056 or some other team, they care more about what you’re doing to help inspire students. We also tried explaining that their strategic design decisions (H drive, not having a climber) were also factors that limited the scope of them being able to be picked. We also explained that many teams will gladly give you quantitative data (including my own, as we are also from FIM), but they insisted that it wouldn’t work because they don’t have time to seek out a scouting alliance because of their small team size, to which we replied to seek out teams before the event, messaging them and asking. The OP refuses to listen to counterpoints and spending time on this thread is really not worth most of your time.

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Anthony… you are so professional and so graceful! Thank you for interpeting for me.

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Inorder to know how well a Robot shoots you need to know which Robot shot a ball and if it made it to the goal. Many balls can enter the target at one time, even watching it on video can be very difficult to see. The scanned information could be stored on the reader/antenna then connected and downloaded sure… it would not have to be networked. Networking just gives you realtime data which probably could come in handy. Yes each ball would have a small RFID tag inserted in it…it would just be a ball id encoded on the tag.
It would acomplish: automating having to count shot balls by a robot. Big scouting teams have this beleave it or not. What this would do is give this information to every team. This scouting information would be available for events that your team did not scout. So if you go to the next event you would have information on the other teams. Currently you would have to watch the video’s of all the other teams to do this. The big teams do this. These teams have gathered individual robot statistics for all of the teams they are going to play. They even send kids to scout teams at other events so they know this information.

we were not 25th at our event in scoring. we were 6th we dropped to 8th after finals.

How do you know this if you weren’t scouting?

I don’t believe any system does this in the world. All power cell counts would have been counted by an individual, and possibly verified via other systems.

This is such a small advantage. Most of the decisions should be made during the event.

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Are you meaning Component OPR? if not, id love to hear whatever system you’re referencing cause thats news to me.

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I’ve only briefly glanced but I think Teleop Cell+Control Panel points is what is being referenced as they are 8th in that. If that’s what is being used as justification, yikes.

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Np… I am saying big scouting teams gather individual robots shots on goal. I did not make that scouting rule … that is what they do. Everyone says so what… then why do these teams do it if it does not matter? A team that does not have this ability to scout has no idea how their robot shot much less how the other teams robots were doing.

So did we, i dont think we’re “big”. Is 20 big?

The very obvious answer then is to learn about scouting effectively and making the most of your team size (remember those scouting alliances i talked about like 20 posts ago? 4513 has been doing them for 3 years now with great success) to get the info you want and need to make informed decisions.

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I do not understand what you are saying… if you mean to justify RFID. No these other people seem to want to pin our score to the justification of RFID, and that is not it at all. It is about automating scouting so small teams can have the same data as the big teams have.

+1, our scouting alliance helped us a lot, and we learned a good amount from it

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On the contrary, I can’t think of much of a better place to divulge the details. People literally post whole whitepapers here for review.

Yet another thread I’m remarkably confused by.

My honest question: Unless required by rules, why would I put a device on my robot which divulges extra information about it to teams which will likely be my competitors, and probably used to formulate a strategy against me?

There is definitely a case of XY going on here - the qustion to be asking is “What ways can we gather scouting data effectively with limited resources” - not “How do we put RFID on every robot”.

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You also get the data, in the case of the ZEBRA tags. Some wicked cool data too, i might add.

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I was talking about your point that your team was 8th in scoring. I don’t know how you came to that conclusion.

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I am sure that way works fine, I am only trying to make scouting better. RFID would do that in ways we have not even talked about.

Forgive me if I’m reiterating what the Discord guys said, but this seems very unfeasible.

Every game piece would need it’s own RFID tag (that are durable enough to endure team’s abuse). What happens if a tag is broken mid match, is it a field fault?
To get information on, for example, how many balls a particular robot scored the you’d need every ball to have their own unique ID so you could track: when a ball is being possessed by a robot, and where it is scored.
And this system has to be accurate/robust enough that if it passes over a defender suddenly the defender doesn’t take possession, and no balls are missed when they go through the goal, and other countless problems I’m sure will come up.

While it sounds great to have public, accurate, and official data, it sounds like hell to actually implement. I’m going to vote no.

As to making sure that teams have scouting data available to them, have you tried… asking?
It’s very possible I’ve been spoiled by 3663 CPR, but as a small team (~15) whenever I’ve asked a big team (>50) if we could help them in exchange for their data usually they just give us the data for free (presumably so we don’t dump untrained scouts on them to decrease their accuracy, but that’s conjecture). It’s basic GP.
As to them fudging the data or somehow biasing themselves higher; the teams I’ve talked scouting with are all looking to capture the most accurate data possible, including for themselves. How do you make preparations or strategy with fudged data? Poorly. It’s not a problem, and if it were then I fully believe that they’d quickly get found and and their public standing would go through the floor.

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Agreed it’s cool. But, I don’t think that changes the potential of strategic advantages from withholding it… Especially since, in the case of ZEBRA, providing your own data is not currently a prerequisite for getting access to the data of others. Not to say that couldn’t change in the future, though…

Disclosure: I am parroting the thoughts of strategic minds far better than my own.