I have mixed feelings about this. I mean, it’s not too hard to avoid if you know what you’re doing. Nonetheless, having a team get blasted 50 points in a match (I saw this once on the webcast) because someone crossed the line is also excessive. It’s not like they gained 50 pts of unfair advantages by doing so…
Especially in autonomous mode, i think it’s excessive. It should also be limited to when the team has anything to gain in teleoperated mode.
Hrmmm,
I have to say i find this rule to be fine. Like Paul said it has been known from the beginning. What I don’t like though is the penalty for this in Autonomous Mode.
Auto Mode is hard enough for most teams, but now it feels like they are saying that if you try it and you screw up you are going to get a penalty. This does not seem fair, especially to teams who’s strong point isn’t programming.
Just my 2 cents
I agree with Paul, the rule has been there from the beginning. And if you change it to say a robot can’t fully cross back over the line, then all you’ve done is move the line.
I agree, this penalty has been known about from the beginning and if you are finding it difficult to follow, then it is something you need to change. Slow down teams. Take it slow, be patient, and if there isn’t a way to move without causing a penalty, don’t move. Robots will clear out of the way, just wait a second or two. Each 10 point penalty you earn for your alliance destroys the work of 5 laps.
Even lap-running bots are running into trouble with this rule, because it’s very easy to drive around the lane divider at the far end of the field, hit some congestion, and then swing the corner of your bumper across the line while trying to maneuver out. The reflectivity of the polycarb on the lane divider makes visibility very difficult.
Yes, the rules has been there from the beginning… but it is seriously putting a damper on gameplay.
His suggestion to change it doesn’t really affect the intent of the rule at all, and will allow robots more maneuvering options leading to higher scoring and more exciting matches. Traffic will still flow counterclockwise, and matches will be better.
I doubt the GDC ever wants to design a game where penalties determine matches (I’m not saying they did, don’t flame).
This game was built around penalties… we will just have to learn to live with it i guess…
Here is the most important point of this discussion. If the rule were changed then just as many penalties would be called because teams would knowingly cross back partially but sometimes cross too far.
I doubt it, and your logic is highly circular.
You’re saying no matter what teams are going to get penalties, because that’s just the way it is. I saw way too many experienced teams who most certainly know better, and certainly were trying not to go “backwards” who got put into a place where they received penalties that could have been avoided under Dave’s proposal.
This is not like the tether reversal of 2002. It’s not going to trivialize everyone’s work and give half the teams an unfair advantage. It’s simply going to make gameplay more dynamic and exciting. It will still penalize teams attempting to impede the flow of traffic, and allow teams who get stuck or need to manuever around someone a small amount of leeway.
Yes we knew about the rule from the start. But that doesn’t mean that as written it’s the best possible solution. Rules that prove to not be practical or effective ought to be changed or removed.
Obviously we have no way of knowing without actually changing the rule, but I disagree with this. In the current state you get a penalty for going even an inch across the line. I will be honest, I have never driven a FIRST robot in a competition and I was only on the drive team for one match (I was sick as a dog and after one practice match decided that being on the drive team was not helping anything), however I have a very strong feeling that for most drivers, seeing exactly where their robot is with respect to that line and making sure the corner of their bumper does not cross it when maneuvering around traffic on the far side of the field with the lane divider in the way is probably very difficult. I think giving them two to three feet of wiggle room would definitely result in less penalties than we are seeing so far.
Also, I wanted to address something that has not yet popped up, but I know will in this thread sooner or later. I know that someone is going to come in and say that it is the first day of week 1 regionals and that drivers will get better as the weeks go by. Well, according to this, for 75% of teams, things won’t get any better. There drivers will not have any more practice than the drivers we are seeing rack up the penalty points.
I would have to disagree with this point. I have been at Midwest for the last 2 days and have never seen a robot that crossed a line because they were trying to interntionally go backwards. I have seen robots with drivers that have little or no experience and struggle to control the robot crossing a line by 1/2" and then breaking the plane resulting in a penalty. We are putting a ton of pressure on the student drivers if we are expecting them to control a robot in a high stress situation, looking 50 feet down a field through multiple layers of lexan (that is reflecting in all kinds of funny ways) and keep from crossing a line backwards with no tolerance for error. In many cases, they can’t even tell if they have crossed the line or not.
I am lucky to have an exceptional drive team, but I am sympathetic to those teams that have inexperienced drive teams.
By not penalizing until to robot completely crosses back across the line, you give the the drivers the length of the robot to recognize their error and correct it. This seems much more in the spirit of the game and of the mission of FIRST than penalizing a tiny error.
I will agree that this rule does seem to be a bit harsh in a lot of situations, especially in autonomous mode where there isn’t anything you can do about your robot (unless you have a working Robo coach program). Unless there is a team with an auton program that is obviously making an intentional effort to go against traffic, I don’t think the penalty should be so severe.
Tele-operated mode is a slightly different story, I can see how the rule needs to be there to prevent teams from going back across, but I don’t think it’s necessary to give a 10 point penalty just because a team happened to go like an inch across while still trying to go in the correct direction. Now if you have teams trying to go back to grab a ball, thats an obvious penalty, but so long as the intention is there, I don’t see how it would cause a problem.
From a drivers point of view, it is very difficult to see your robot on the other side of the field, especially with the number of other robots that can be impeding your vision at the same time.
I guess I would just like to see the rule at least a little less strict.
Speaking as a former referee (2005) intent is incredibly hard to judge in the heat of the moment. You can’t assume anything about intent, only what your eyes have seen on the field.
You either have to call every infraction, no matter how small, or figure out how to keep teams from continuing to receive penalties, be it a rule change, or simply more practice for teams, etc.
Speaking as one of the many many loophole finders that plague the GDC every single season… Dave’s proposed rule change is going to cause more problems and is probably just going to be exploited by teams that could take advantage of it. I can think of a few teams that would benefit from redoes by whipping out an extension behind their robot so they have about 5 feet of wiggle room.
Honestly, if you really really absolutely hated this rule, just switch it from an instant penalty to a timed penalty like the endzone encroachment last year. You get a fair warning but still have leeway to sneak a bumper across th plane by accident.
G22 is the 2008 version of the incredibly high 30-point penalties from Triple Play in 2005.
Yeah, we all hated the rule. Yeah, there were a ton of penalties. But eventually, teams got used to it and drivers learned to drive a lot more carefully while at the opponents end of the playing field.
That being said, I certainly do not like the amount of penalties being seen in this year’s game. One way or another, I sure hope it goes down as the season progresses.
I just don’t get it. You have 30+ inches to figure out if the congestion will hurt you. Don’t fully cross the line if you think you might have to go backwards. There are too many penalties because people are causing the penalties by not following the rules (in most cases).
This rule was clear from the start, never changed, and gives us 30+" of leway … I just don’t get why people are attacking this rule.
I havent competed yet, but I think the big deal is that there are a lot of penalties occuring AND its affecting match outcomes.
I cant speak for the drivers that are doing it wondering why they aren’t careful enough or the reasons why they “accidentally” do it (lack of sight, etc.) but I think its safe to say that teams dont purposely accumulate penalties and the comment about the lexan glare is a valid one.
I certainly can understand some of the points made by my observations watching regional play from the “side” view all day.
They are taking an incredibly hard line on this rule, and it needs to be modified.
I watched a number of matches where a robot crossed a line, turned to proceed onwards, and back corner of the bot crossed the line again when they turned. Instant penalty.
When a rule is broken this much, clearly unintentionally, then it needs to be changed. The spirit of the rule is to prevent backwards motion of the robots - against the flow of traffic. The letter of the law is making it very dangerous to do any maneuvering. MANY times it’s being broken because bot has to back up to get away from a wall, etc that they’ve been pushed or bumped into.
I agree with Dave. This rule is deciding way to many matches, and needs to be changed to penalizing a bot that FULLY crosses back over the line. Then all these small unintentional crossing penalties that are having a major impact on the final scores would be mitigated.
Paul, what I’m seeing a lot of and the reason I think this needs to be changed is that we’re seeing lots of tank-steer robots which cross the line then start to tank-turn which causes one of their corners to back up slightly, creating a shadow about 1" long on the other side of the line and BAM… penalty. The majority of the penalties I’m seeing are not at all intentional and many are coming from younger teams with less experienced drivers.
Incidentally, I think we’ve only been penalized for this once. I’m not arguing for this change for the benefit of our team, but rather the many other less experienced teams that are getting dinged repeatedly basically just because they have inexperienced drivers and robots that aren’t quite as easy to control.
Maybe it’s just not being enforced as strictly at your regional as here.
That is a very good point. It is hard to judge “intent” when you have 5 other robots and such to watch. Thinking about it more, I do think that drivers will learn (over time) to be more careful and they’ll pick up less of these penalties.
However, if someone has an auton that goes awry, I feel that it shouldnt be penaltized UNLESS it hurts another robot.