At the Suffield Shake Down scrimmage the officials added a requirement that the super cell that was exchanged had to be exactly opposite the position on the rack where the empty cell was placed. I would like to know if any other scrimmages had this rule imposed. Also, do you think it’s a real rule?
I can’t find anything saying that it’s an official rule. However, it is reasonable for it to be a guideline to make it easier for the refs. If you aren’t sure, Q&A. Now. This is something that could bite teams during Week 1. It will affect play, at least for a bit. Right now, it’s not enforceable by the rules. Either the rules have to change (1 update chance to do that) or the requirement must leave.
Thanks for confirming my suspicion. I’d like to ask First, but I’m still waiting for my account to be activated.
My main concern is that if this becomes an official rule, it will put unnecessary stress on the PS in the corner who only has 20 seconds to decide what to do with the potential game changing super cells.
I’m not sure why this is a concern. The super cell is on the rack. A robot delivers an empty cell. The PS puts the EC on the rack, grabs the SC right next to it, and then enters the SC into play. It should be a 2-3 second operation, tops.
Putting the EC on the rack opposite the SC is an easy way to verify that the SC was legally traded.
2-3 seconds, IF that EC comes in in the last 20 seconds.
That’s what I’m thinking happened: the officials thought that this would be an easy way to confirm that the appropriate number of Super Cells were in play from a given Fueling Station. However, in the process, they created a new rule. That isn’t appropriate. You gotta put something like that in an update!
I would encourage any team who is penalized for throwing the wrong Super Cell at competitions (not throwing before the appropriate time, throwing the wrong cell) to challenge the ruling. In, of course, a graciously professional manner. If the refs can’t show you the rule, then according to the GDC, they can’t give you a penalty (though cards may be in order–also not called for here.) This is unless Tuesday’s update contains a new restriction.
Its fairly obvious that if there is one EC and one SC left on the rack that someone has swapped them, why do they need to be right next to each other? As long as there are at least 2 game pieces on the rack there should be no problem whether or not you swapped a EC on the left side for the SC on the right side…
Exactly! But, for whatever reason, officials chose to use a rule that isn’t a rule for this. Good practice for the PS? Maybe. But if it isn’t in the rules, it isn’t in the rules.
Team 1735 stopped by the Suffield Shakedown to watch a few matches and see how the game played out, and I distinctly remember one match where they gave a penalty for taking the wrong SC, only to rescind it a couple minutes later after finding out that someone had switched the balls!
I really hope that this doesn’t become an official rule, because it hypothetically becomes very easy for anyone to move the balls (on accident or not) in the commotion during the reset (unless officials are vigilant in keeping an eye on it)
i dont really see how this is a problem. and I do believe i heard this rule at kickoff where inorder to use a supercell there had to b an emptycell on the poll adjacent to it.
And i dont see how there could be confusion with moving supercells. IF empty cell on rack next to supercell AND time is less than 20 seconds THEN supercell can enter play OTHERWISE it stays on rack.
Why would this not be a rule? I mean theres 4 supercells on ur alliance, 2 per station. if you have an empty cell then u can switch. I mean it would be very confusing if this wern’t a rule cause alliances and refs would have to be keeping track of empty/super cells from different parts of the field.
EDIT: O i guess i misunderstood what happened. but once you put an EC on the rack y would u move it? and if something like that did happen i guess the human player should have the awareness to put it back before the game is over.
I said this last year, but it bears repeating: I don’t care what whoever says at Kickoff, if it isn’t in the rules, it isn’t in the rules. If it isn’t in the rules, it isn’t a rule. If it’s enforced as a rule, EVERY team that gets penalized has grounds for a challenge. And they’ve only got 1 update to make it a rule/not a rule.
i know but seeing as i havn’t been apart of build season and havn’t read the rules as thoroughly as usual i just figured it was in there. my bad
but still dont see how this is a big deal
so, the way that they were calling these penalties at the Shakedown, they were 20pts a pop. for just grabbing the “wrong” Super Cell.
IMHO thats no different then a driver accidentally picking up 2 EC’s with the robot. Part of that person’s job is to not do that, so if they get a penalty for not paying attention then they get a penalty.
now if they were nice they would let you be able to fix it before the match was over, like if theres an EC on one rack and u do grab through the wrong one but then fix it before the match is over then it wouldnt b penalized. but thats if they are nice, and if they actually make this a rule.
I think it mentioned this in the video, however, I haven’t seen a rule.
Were there any challenges?
Unfortunately, I couldn’t tell if people were being allowed to challenge any of the calls, since we got there part way through. They had had an issue with the field earlier in the day, so they were running behind schedule. I’m guessing that there was at least one challenge, since one of the calls was overturned because one of the reset people moved a ball, but Andy Grady kept emphasizing that it was a penalty after every match. (I think a lot of the teams there were too worried about the robots working than making a challenge, with only 3 days left to fix anything that went wrong.)
You should be careful stating absolutes regarding the rules. There is usually room for various interpretations.
If there is no rules update that addresses this issue I would suggest asking the question at your driver’s meeting. And in this specific case I suspect that it will not matter which SC is played, as long as there is a 1 for 1 relationship. However, please refer to the recent communication sent out by FIRST, which states in NO uncertain terms:
… once the Head Referee has made a decision, the decision is FINAL! FIRST will not overturn any Head Referee decisions…
So, challenge if you must, but I believe FIRSTs position is very clear on that point …
In this case, the GDC has ruled in Q&A that penalties must be backed by the Manual. The refs at Suffield were apparently giving penalties that are nowhere to be found in the Manual. Until there’s an Update that says that this is the procedure, or FIRST releases official documentation saying the same thing, this isn’t a rule, or rather, not penalizable.
The “Challenge” I refer to is the clarification process, as teams may sometimes see it. I.E. Team YZXA goes to the Head Ref and says, “Excuse me, but why was this penalty given?” If a Head Ref can find a rule that says this, then the team has clarification. If a Head Ref can’t find the rule, then he or she needs to retract the penalty if at all possible, similar to how a football ref can pick up thrown flags if he finds he made a mistake.
I don’t think anyone challenged, based on it not being a rule. We didn’t bring a copy of the rules with us to the shakedown, and even if we did, I doubt we could have figured it out in time. It took me a couple of hours to convince myself when I finally looked it up the next day. I think everyone there just assumed that the officials must be right.