Scoring For Your Opponents

FIRST General Forum
#1

With the way that ranking points have been calculated since the 2000 season, it’s always been more advantageous to allow your opponents to score more points. This a very neat part of FIRST. I have always been a fan of this rule, until this past weekend.

During matches where we had a big lead, our drivers were instructed to leave let our opponents get on their ramp, and play a minimal amount of defence. This was in hopes of gaining more ranking points. In certain matches, our opponents were not scoring many points, so we scored for them. As many as 30 points in one match. The result was a closer match, and more ranking points for both teams. Everyone should be happy? Right? Well, not exactly

I spoke with one of the teams who we played against and scored for. They were very insulted by us scoring for them, and said it was us rubbing salt in their wounds. I’d never considered this before. Our team discussed it that night, and we could see where our opponents were coming from. That being said, as long as the loser’s score is part of the ranking system, we will continue to try maximize it.

I’m curious as to how others feel about this? Would you be insulted if your opponent scored for you during a blow out?

#2

Like you said Karthik, as long as the losers score is part of your QP, that’s fair strategy. That is part of your strategy. I’m sorry if they’re insulted, but that is part of the game. If FIRST is going to design a game where their points count for you then it is your responsibility to score for them. That is part of trying to be successful.

#3

I’ve toyed with this idea in my head before. While I understand the reasoning behind giving teams their opponents’ score, I think that scoring for the other team to increase your RP is in a way like showing off. I know that that’s most certainly not the intent, but there is the implicit message that “we’re beating you by so much that we can afford to score for you”. To apply it to sports, it’s almost like scoring a touchdown to put yourself ahead by 35, doing a touchdown dance, pulling a Sharpie out of your sock to sign the football, whatever. Then, on top of that, the referees give you another point as a reward for your celebration. I’ve been on both sides of lopsided FIRST matches enough times to think that I probably wouldn’t take it all that hard, because it’s part of the game. However, I’m quite sympathetic to those who see the implicit message as being not graciously professional.

#4

Simply put, it’s a good strategy.

I would hope that a team doesn’t expect me to abandon my strategy of scoring extra ranking points so that their feelings aren’t hurt. That may sound harsh, but the point is, this has absolutely nothing to do with being flashy or rubbing salt in their wounds or showing off. It’s their choice to see it that way. Anyone that knows the game, ranking system, and strategy should be able to see that it’s a legit way to put yourself higher in the rankings and shouldn’t be looked down upon. If I were the losing team, I would almost expect the opponent to be doing that. I’d just be annoyed at myself for not being able to out-score them, and would try my darndest to do better next time.

Teams need to do what they can to help themselves place well - if their desire is to place high and win… No, it’s not all about winning, but pretty much everyone out there would like to win the event… There’s usually a large group of top teams who all only lost 1 match, so they use your ranking score to place you. Scoring a few points for your opponent might just give you the advantage, but it can also help the losing team as well.

I hope people don’t claim this to be un-GP. It’s been discussed before, and I don’t think it’s un-GP… it’s strategy that one team may be able to use that another can’t or chooses not to… but so be it… do what you can to win your next match… all you can do is your best.

Good luck to everyone in the coming weeks!

#5

Perhaps the expression of insult was simply a coverup for the true frustration a team had over their lunches just being handed to them by a superior opponent?

As long as FIRST bases RP’s on losing alliance scores, scoring for the opposition during a sure win is simply smart play. Those who take offence (Canadian spelling) to this strategy do not understand the nature of the contest, nor do they understand that they themselves are receiving a RP boost through their opponents’ actions.

#6

There is no shame in playing the best match you can play. You are one of the few robots that can score so well that you can score for your opponents too. That is something to be proud of. And anyway, you are helping their rank too, so there is no harm done if you ask me.

#7

I can see why the opposing alliance would find it offensive and think it was rubbing salt in their wounds. It is like saying we’re so good, not only are we going to win, I’m so sure i’m going to win, I’ll help score for you, just to prove my goodness. At the same time it is a good strategy to finish the game, which is what I think comes out on top. If the other team was in your place the tables would be turned and they wouldn’t care. However it is important to leave it on the field and not do it off. That would definaltey go against all gracious professionalism.

#8

as long as your robot is not doing any backwards over its head shots (hey, Im not even looking!) , or bouncing the ball between its wheels

or a spinning through the air back hook slam dunk, then no… I dont think you are showing off :^)

If you pick up a dead robot and set it on its own ramp with your robot, just dont pat it on the head as you turn towords your own ramp!

(BTW - you can always plead “our driver was confused!”)

#9

I believe Karthik said it as was stated to him - “insulted” which also could be interpreted as “embarrassed”?

I agree in part with what most have said, but I think the qualifying points emphasis has been set up to to try and eliminate the reason for a “blowout” in the first place. There once was a game that you were rewarded the most by just barely beating your opponent - the safety margin was very small. Since then, penalty values and high point value at the end (hanging, being on the ramp, getting home) created a big enough gap that you didn’t want to risk losing by that slim of a margin.

If the qualifying points were not at risk, there would be more than one way to do that. But, sometimes in this game you have to be cautious especially if you don’t know how far ahead you are (scoring system shut off) and don’t want to risk losing a close game by penalities (which can add up quickly with the offsides rule, and the lower goal scoring infractions).

I guess I can see how some teams could take it as a slap in the face - even though the justification is clearly to increase your (and their) qualifying points, very few will feel better knowing that the opponent was able to score more for them than they were.

Maybe, that is what FIRST should do - limit the amount the opposition can score for the other team, by the amount that team was able to score or themselves.

#10

Last season RAGE used it as a legit strategy. While I can see it as insulting to some, the thing they have to remember is that it is helping thier team and alliance as well becuase of the ranking points.

#11

At NJ team 25 did it quite often, due to the fact that they had to be loaded by HPs…so they would push balls through their opponents goal so they could get loaded up…basically sacrificing 1 point for the opprotunity to get 3. I’d take that trade any day of the week.

#12

I have pride. And to have another team not only blow me out, which I can accept, but to humiliate me by scoring for me, makes me lose respect for myself and my robot and alliance partners, that we’re THAT bad. I have never been in the situation, but thinking about it, I can imagine how humiliated I would be if my alliance sucked badly enough that the other team had to score for it, showing that they noticed how bad we were and felt sorry enough to score for us.

To me, it would say that they didnt even have the respect to think that we could do it ourselves, that they couldnt respect our dignity, let us have respect for our effort, and them have respect for our effort.

I understand that it’s part of the game, that it is in a team’s best interests to do it. I would never be angry at a team that used this strategy, because it IS part of the game. I can respect that, and if it’s part of their strategy, so be it. However, when the rule sets teams up to be humiliated, makes it so that their robot, that they worked on for 6 weeks and invested time and effort into cannot even have the dignity of losing respectfully, I don’t much like the rule.

#13

If somebody increased my score, even if they were only trying to help themselves, in this game, they would help me in the process. And I would thank them for that.

#14

If any team would like to give out points, by all means go ahead.

Many teams have discussed this strategy and it is very controversal. I believe all teams should play thier game to the fullest. If you are beating an alliance with a comfortable margin, keep scoring and playing your game. The scouts are in the stands watching you at each competition. I would have doubts about any team that let up on the competiton. Every point that we score, has to first go through the machine that our team spent 6 weeks of hard work on.

One match many years ago during an offseason event, one of our partners yelled at the end of the match for our team to get in the other allinaces home zone. We ended up losing the match by a small margin and that created confusion and lack of trust for other teams.

My bottom line: Play your match, not your oppenents. Because when those penalties add up or the calculations are not right, you lose matches. If you are a great offensive machine, you will be picked by a high ranking team or rank high yourself.

#15

It’s either getting more points for yourself or getting more for the opponent.
I figure if a team’s going to get mad, they’d probably get mad either way (being beaten by a lot or having the score carried).

so do what you feel you feel you need to do. don’t think too much about it.

#16

There has to be a tie-breaker for teams with equal w/l/t records. FIRST has elected to set that up to be the losing team’s score. This certainly can cause scoring for the opponents - as the triplets did this year. I recall seeing 67 pick up an opponent’s tetra last year to score a row for them, for the same reason.

While it can be seen as insulting, it isn’t meant to be so. The alternative is to have rankings based on your own scores - which would encourage running up the score. In my mind, that is more insulting. FIRST has created a solution to one problem that creates a lesser problem. It’s a trade-off - you can’t have everything perfect.

The fact that scoring for your opponent also increases their ranking makes this option better than the “running up the score” option, IMO.

Even more insulting would be to get ahead, then step back from your controls and stop playing. That’s the “I can beat you with one hand tied behind my back” taunt.

#17

This sounds a bit like some weird Klingon or gladiator form of pride, where a warrior would rather be put to death by an opponent that led away on their feet as a loser.

In engineering you cannot guarantee results, all you can do is guarantee your best effort will be applied to the project. I have been on projects that did not turn out well, I have been on projects that were cancelled. We still had end-of-project parties, and we still had the same level of pride in our work

because we did the best we could under the circumstances.

Besides, sometimes no matter how good you are someone else will one-up you and do better. Sometimes pride is great. Sometimes humility is called for. No one can humiliate you if you are already humble in the presence of greatness.

#18

Actually, the ranking points are rather complex.

First is Qualifing Points (QP’s)
Win - 2pt
Loss/DQ - 0pt
Tie - 1pt

In the event of a tie in QP’s they use ranking points (RP’s) which are awarded as follows:

Win - The lesser of Unpenalized Alliance Scores from either Alliance
Loss - Penalized score of losing alliance
Tie - Penalized score of own alliance.
DQ - zero

I just finished a backup scoring sheet in excel, what a pain.

#19

This brings up a good point - MAKE SURE you are comfortably ahead before you start scoring for the opposition, especially this season. We obviously cannot always rely upon real time scoring to give us any true indication of how the match stands. To avoid any potential heartache/devastation/what have you out of your alliance should you score TOO MANY points for the opposition, make sure the scoring gap is wide enough to proceed, and don’t get TOO greedy.

If this strategy backfires on any alliance that attempts it, they will have no one to blame but themselves. Be smart - know the risks before proceeding.

#20

First off, I’m not a klingon or a gladiator. I’d like to hope I’m better looking then that. I may have too much pride in my robot, or just too much pride overall, I will admit that. I also have no problem in being blown-out, one-upped if my alliance/robot deserves it. I do have a problem with when they not only one-up me and do better, but also show that they recognized just how much better they are, and instead of holding back, score for me.

FIRST is not just engineering. FIRST is a sport, in which opposing teams play against each other. In hockey, in baseball, in soccer, opposing teams would never score for you, not only because they are competitive, but because they have respect for your effort.

I’m not saying that this is what would be going through the opposing team’s minds when they score for you, but it’s what some people will get out of it.

There is a fine line between humility and humiliation, and for some, who certainly have humility, this may cross that line.