This thread can be moved to the appropriate loction by mods, I just wasn’t quite sure if it belonged in strategy.
Matt Starke (Starke340 on CD) and myself have been thinking about this idea for a while now and are ready to get some feedback on it at this point. As scouters/strategizers we have always tried to help other teams when possible, most of the time in our specialties. The idea of going to several regionals just to help other teams was something we came up with. We could either be at the regionals with specific teams or simply helping out any team in need. Seeing as travel might get expensive we thought about charging teams for scouting/strategy services but were not sure if that was a good/legal idea haha. But the point of my bringing this up was that we would like some disscusion about this on whether or not it is a good idea or even plausible in one form or another. Either in this thread or over private messaging, if you have any thoughts please let me know. And if anyone would like to see a “resume” or “references” we can provide those too.
I think I would have to see some references & your resume. I know of a couple of teams that would probably enlist your services. It would be easier if you just mentored those teams.
I think this could lead to an interesting, larger discussion about to what extent mentors should be and are paid to participate on FRC teams.
I was once offered payment to mentor an FRC team and turned it down. Now that I’m working full-time at a real job and mentoring full-time, though, I’d consider taking payment for being a mentor – particularly if it meant that I could devote my full attention to it.
I know that there have been more than a few instances of teams borrowing coaches from other teams. For as long as it’s mentors displacing other mentors, I think I’m okay by it. I’d be less comfortable with mentors taking over a role held by a student unless there was a pretty solid understanding that it was okay by the student – and I don’t think that understanding can happen in the midst of an event.
What do you mean when you say strategiser? Do you mean the on the field strategist? If so, then i definatly dont think this would work. You will not have the full understanding of the teams strategy, and you wont have good chemistry with the drivers.
I dont really like the idea of paying you to help. I would rather pay our “Full time” mentors, than someone only with us for 2-3 days.
Im not saying you guys couldnt help, because experience is always great in scouting, but to me it isnt worth it.
Joey
I apologize in advance because I am sure this is going to offend some people. Maybe I do not quite understand what you are proposing here but I really don’t think I like this idea at all. Once we “sink” to the level of bringing in paid outside consultants we are really treading on the edge of destroying the ideals of FIRST. The FRC is about the process not the end result. If a team is looking for a consultant to pay to help them scout and strategize then they are really saying “We are willing to pay to win at all costs.” That, my friends, is not at all what FIRST is about. Remember, the robot is just the vehicle. As far as I am concerned, part of the process is for the students to learn to scout, and strategize, and work together with their alliance partners in those brief moments before you go on the field.
Now if you are just looking for a way to visit several regional events and help out the teams that are there but can’t afford the travel expenses on your own that is a different story. There are any number of ways to volunteer at a regional and I bet if you posted here on CD that you want to volunteer at X regional but need to catch a ride with a team or maybe even need a place to stay, something could probably be worked out with a team. My problem is with the payment for services. Once you are getting paid it is a whole different ball game to me.
I like the idea Dylan! I remember talking to you about this haha. And Rees, being Dylan’s Manager/Assistant, if you want him we will have to talk. I have a contract all set up and ready to go haha:yikes:
As a bit of a strategizer myself (what can I say, a child of Copioli), I’m not entirely sure how I feel about being paid to do something like that, especially in such a volunteer-based environment as FIRST. However, without delving too much more deeply into that issue, if anyone is looking for some help with scouting/strategizing I can’t recommend anyone more than Dylan. I’ve had the opportunity to work with him on Galileo, and it was immediately recognizable the dedication and natural talent he possesses. I think I’ve even posted about it here before. I could definitely see him drawing up plans and strategies based on observations of the way different teams work on the field.
I think some folks bring good points from both sides. The way I see it is that there is no regulations on “paid consultants”.
Some coaches who are usually school teachers are paid by their school district while others not…are the teachers getting paid considered paid consultants ?
My concern is that if teams want to “pay” for assistance I am ok with it as long those folks are not called “Mentors”.
A mentor by definition is someone that “supports” and provide guidance among other things, but does not have a “stake” on it like “monetary compensation”.
Mentors are not consultants. Mentors are not for hired.
Babysitters are get paid to baby-sit, but they are not family per say.
A mentor is like part of the “team”, but it is there for many reasons but MONEY.
If teams have that much money to buy “expertise”, might as well use that money to help the cause as a whole…maybe use it to train more mentors or fund “celebration event” to thank all the mentors that volunteered their time.
I have mentored a team for a couple years with no expectations with the exception one day, one of those “kids” will be walking in the hallway of the company I work and say…aren’t you our mentor back in 2006/2007 ?.
Today I am mentoring a rookie team…and the journey continues.
An interesting definition but don’t some teams sponsors let their staff work as “mentors” and they are paid by the their company while they are doing it?
The team itself is not paying for the “mentor”.
I personally really LOVE this idea, im not going to have a lot of time to help out any team in my area besides kickoff weekend coming up with a design etc. to really make an impact during build season.
i’ll probably go to the Florida Regional and offer my services for no charge to any teams that want it (i doubt it, but w/e)
if the team succeed with my help and the team earns it’s way to Atlanta, and they want me to come along. I would come along as long as it wasn’t a problem for the team (they have an extra bed at the hotel/they have space in the car etc.) and work even harder so that that team can succeed.
a few teams have asked me to help them out with selection lists before, and i didn’t hesitate to help out.
here are a few other ways to think about this:
If FIRST does get the shot in the future to be on TV or something, they will need someone can point out little things to the viewers that strategists can see on the field (Karthik during GTR on Discovery Canada comes to mind)
political parties have their own strategists and some sports teams hire strategists so they can succeed.
In my honest opinion, if teams are that desperate that they are willing to pay someone to come up with strategies and to scout other teams for them so that they can succeed, they don’t understand that in FIRST, it’s not all about being 1st.
I’m not trying to put down the topic creators at all, but why should the strategist be an adult anyway? Just because they can, doesn’t mean they should be. It’s a valuable position for a team member to play, especially if it means they have chemistry with the drivers and an ability to relate to alliance partners. Also, it gives another member the experience of being on the field, which is never a bad thing. 840 has always done it, and it has worked quite well.
First, Dylan has clarified that they would be off-field strategists. Working with the drive team (including coach) and I would assume alliance partners to develop strategies, and also helping with alliance lists for elims.
Second, please, please, please (please, please, please) keep that debate away from this thread. There are other threads on that topic and it certainly doesn’t need to be dredged up here.
To address the original question, I would be all for teams treating you guys like their mentors if they so choose. Depending on the team this may cover gas and a roof over your head for the weekend. Even this is pushing it as mentors are there the whole season and you guys are just hopping in for the weekend. I would definitely wonder about any team that would reward a weekend strategy team with anything above and beyond what they do for their mentors.
Would someone in this situation really want to be a mentor?
If you are considered a mentor of the team, you’re in a position where you can pretty much be held responsible for anything that happens to the kids while they are under team supervision.
I know this isn’t really under the domain of the original topic of this thread, but it’s something to think about.
Ok so I tried to add this to my original post so more people would read it and that didn’t work so I will just update it here.
To answer a few questions…
We would be off-field strategists. Mainly coming up with basic strategies then fitting them to teams we are helping. Also helping with alliance pickings and such. I have been on the field team for 3 years as coach so I know first hand that in situations a kid should be the one talking with other teams, thats our first priority. If we can educate the kids of other teams about strategy and improve their understanding of it, regionals will may become more competetive and they won’t need our help.
With payments. We feel it would be more like donations. Such as maybe letting us stay in houses or hotel rooms with the teams instead of getting paid. Or payments in food are always good. Once again NOT MONETARY PAYMENTS! Sorry for the caps but I would like to move the thread back to my original topic.
There are likely cause and effect possibilities that stem from ideas like this. It is good to step back and look at/think of all the ones that you can.
I thought about the awards. As it stands now, how are judges going to understand that a team hired a strategist at the competition? Many judges (as well as others) understand the concept of helping to change the culture. By hiring strategists, is that helping to change the culture? If it is, how is it doing so and to what end? There’s a lot to think about in a proposal such a this one, I think. If you are hired and you don’t come through with the success you are offering the team, can they sue you? It becomes a business. Let’s say teams at regionals make it a common practice to hire strategists - then what comes next - working within the culture in society that exists now? Where can it lead?
Also, part of being an FRC team is developing and growing. If the team invites strategists to come to some team meetings and share experience/knowledge, that is a way to help the team develop and grow. If the team hires strategists to come to the regional and work for the team in achieving success on the field, it can still help the team develop and grow but it can also invite problems that the team and the strategists need to be prepared for.
Kudos to you for wanting to spread your knowledge and expertise to other teams. Many FIRST teams seem to lack sound strategic planning at competitions. Hopefully by helping a single team out at a regional, you can inspire them to focus more on strategic planning in the future. This in my mind is a very good thing.
As for the issue of payment by donation, I see no issue with it. One of the most important part of the FIRST program is developing partnerships. What makes FIRST a unique program is that teams are encouraged to develop partnerships with engineers and mentors to increase the learning and inspiration of the student participants. This is exactly what any team who uses Dylan’s services would be doing. Many teams give their mentors gifts at the end of the year, or even cover their travel costs during the season as recognition for their dedication and sacrifices. Chipping in to cover Dylan’s travel costs, or buying him dinner seem like a more than fair way to recognize and reward the service he would be providing for the team.
you bring up some good points Jane but form talking to dill-un (Dylan) i would not call it hiring i don’t think would make money he would just break even as he said ( NOT MONETARY PAYMENTS!) food, gas and leting him sleep in your cold garage during the comp is not really hireing him
As Dylan mentioned when starting this thread, I am the second part to the equation of this idea. What Karthik said is exactly what we are aiming for. Dylan and I are not looking to charge teams for our services, simply covering the costs to be there to help. Both of us love scouting and strategizing, and desire to share our knowledge with other teams! This thread is meant to share our idea with the CD community and see what other teams think.
