Scouting and Confusion Fix for Nationals

Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 6/23/2000 11:57 AM MST

I’m fairly sure that most would agree with me if I say that Nationals is getting very big and hard to co-ordinate.

Well, I’ve got an idea that I would like some help with that may makes things more manageable.

This idea would make scouting much easier and also eliminate the problem that many ‘pickers’ had in '00… they were not very prepared with choosing their alliances, and MANY excellent teams got left out of the finals fray.

Here it is:

We should compete in REGIONS… only playing other teams from our general area, until the very end.

Here’s how I see it working: There would be four regions… west, midwest, south and northeast. Each of these regions would play their q matches and come up with their top 8 alliances. A region winner would be determined, and that winner would play against each of the three other region winners to become the national champ.

Another BIG thing that this rectifies: there is not a need for teams to travel to far away regionals so that teams in other areas get to know them. This extra travelling for regionals would no longer be needed and teams could save some money.

So far, I see two negatives:

We wouldn’t be playing teams from all across the nation. BUT, we would still all be there at the same site, so we could at least see each other. Also, FIRST could stagger the timing of each regions’ finals, so that the people from other regions could watch each other final rounds (for scouting, enjoyment, and cheering).

Secondly, the four regions are not equally balanced. Both the NE and MW regions would be twice as big as the West, while the South is somewhere in-between. Some teams might have to considered West, while they are more centrally located, and some of NE teams would have to be considered South.

I think that these negatives are minimal compared to the benefits.

There you have it… what do you think?

Andy B.

Posted by Lora Knepper.

Student on team #69, HYPER (Helping Youth Pursue Engineering & Robotics), from Quincy Public Schools and The Gillette Company.

Posted on 6/23/2000 4:09 PM MST

In Reply to: Scouting and Confusion Fix for Nationals posted by Andy Baker on 6/23/2000 11:57 AM MST:

I think that would help solve some of the major issues with scouting/alliance selection, but something in me balks at the idea of dividing the National into regions. This in effect turns it into the regionals all being held at the same place and time. And I know the one reason, probably one of the only reasons I enjoy the National so much is getting to drive against and with teams from around the nation…err…globe.

So I’m not really sure. As a driver, I do much of my own scouting, and there are just far too many teams to cover even with a dedicated crew. But my gut feeling is saying no, because the National gives us a chance to play with others we haven’t yet had the chance to, and by dividing us up, we lose that aspect of competition…unless you are one of the top powerhouse teams.

I know that when it comes down to ally selection, I’m partial to those I’ve already driven with, for good or bad. I kept a list of teams that I would have selected in the National if we had seeded high enough, and though yes, one was a local NE team, one was from the other side of the nation, and one from the center. All of these teams we had played with…I don’t know if I would have ranked them so high as allies if we hadn’t already played together, and in a Region division, we would not have had that chance.

What does everyone else think?

Lora

Posted by Jon.

Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.

Posted on 6/23/2000 7:22 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Scouting and Confusion Fix for Nationals posted by Lora Knepper on 6/23/2000 4:09 PM MST:

i’m not sure i like the Region concept… i’m definitely all about the mayhem as it happens now…
we have a ‘dedicated crew’ of 2 and draft more of our team to make it all work but with the advent of Scouting Networks like GMCIA and databases like SOAP it definitely makes the job a little more easier…

i think that as a connected FIRST-a-holic, my job as a scout is definitely a lot easier now that i worked with SOAP and GMCIA and i know people in all sorts of teams… if i were a rookie at nationals, i’d be overwhelmed but i’d probably be worried about my machine if i was a rookie again…

so in conclusion, as the networks evolve, it’ll get easier and more polished… plus i think that whatever size control they create for nationals will end up having this side effect… i’m not for controlling the size of nationals by no means, because i love the bigger than life atmosphere and its kinda reaffirming to see so many other people that are into the same things as you…

Posted by Dante.

Student on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 6/23/2000 10:32 PM MST

In Reply to: Scouting and Confusion Fix for Nationals posted by Andy Baker on 6/23/2000 11:57 AM MST:

: I’m fairly sure that most would agree with me if I say that Nationals is getting very big and hard to co-ordinate.

: Well, I’ve got an idea that I would like some help with that may makes things more manageable.

: This idea would make scouting much easier and also eliminate the problem that many ‘pickers’ had in '00… they were not very prepared with choosing their alliances, and MANY excellent teams got left out of the finals fray.

: Here it is:

: We should compete in REGIONS… only playing other teams from our general area, until the very end.

: Here’s how I see it working: There would be four regions… west, midwest, south and northeast. Each of these regions would play their q matches and come up with their top 8 alliances. A region winner would be determined, and that winner would play against each of the three other region winners to become the national champ.

: Another BIG thing that this rectifies: there is not a need for teams to travel to far away regionals so that teams in other areas get to know them. This extra travelling for regionals would no longer be needed and teams could save some money.

: So far, I see two negatives:

: We wouldn’t be playing teams from all across the nation. BUT, we would still all be there at the same site, so we could at least see each other. Also, FIRST could stagger the timing of each regions’ finals, so that the people from other regions could watch each other final rounds (for scouting, enjoyment, and cheering).

: Secondly, the four regions are not equally balanced. Both the NE and MW regions would be twice as big as the West, while the South is somewhere in-between. Some teams might have to considered West, while they are more centrally located, and some of NE teams would have to be considered South.

: I think that these negatives are minimal compared to the benefits.

: There you have it… what do you think?

: Andy B.

Hey, Andy, i am down with what you say. But I am sure there could be some bugs worked out, and everybody would like it. Sounds good to me!

Dante`

Posted by jack.

Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro(molding the future).

Posted on 6/24/2000 7:18 AM MST

In Reply to: Scouting and Confusion Fix for Nationals posted by Andy Baker on 6/23/2000 11:57 AM MST:

I like the idea of splitting the nationals into regions, but the one negative that would pursuade me to say no is the fact that only a few select teams will have the privalage of driving with or against other teams across the FIRST nation (US+World) i think the nationals really symbolize the unity of all the teams and the messiah of all competitions. another thing is that the nationals would be almost a repeat of some regionals, cuz you would be playing with/against familiar teams. but other than that i think dividing the nationals is a good idea because it minimizes alot of work and time.
i had one question, with your idea did you see the same three team alliance procceeding though to the end or when you move on do you repick from a larger group. or in the beginning can you pick anybody not just people from your reegion.

Posted by Splash.

Student on team #53, Team Inferno, from Eleanor Roosevelt High School and NASA GSFC.

Posted on 6/24/2000 12:54 PM MST

In Reply to: Scouting and Confusion Fix for Nationals posted by Andy Baker on 6/23/2000 11:57 AM MST:

If teams actually had members sit and watch the teams compete, then I think that this would work. The problem has been that teams are bitter because they were not picked for whatever reason, and they feel that if they had been viewed, they would have been selected. No matter what the format, if the teams do not actually sit and watch all of the matches, the same thing will happen again next year. At one point, we were ranked 6th overall, yet, our scouting remained limited. Having only 100 teams to watch though, makes it more easily done, this is a good aspect.

The major complaint I see though, is that your selections for alliance partners will be limited to your region. The mid-west would be an extremely tough division. WIth many Delphi and GM teams (yes they can be beaten) the choices for alliance partners would be deep. Comparatively, another bracket could not be as deep, and when the teams finally make it to the final round of competition, teams will be bitter that they could not have selected from a better group.

I think this could be fixed though, if the assignment to each region was random, like in the NCAA tournament. Even if you are from the northeast, you could possibly end up in the west.

Posted by Lora Knepper.

Student on team #69, HYPER (Helping Youth Pursue Engineering & Robotics), from Quincy Public Schools and The Gillette Company.

Posted on 6/24/2000 2:49 PM MST

In Reply to: Almost posted by Splash on 6/24/2000 12:54 PM MST:

After talking with Charlie from 222, the Tigertrons, we came up with the same solution. If FIRST decided that the National was just too large to be held in it’s current state, then divide us not by region, but use random assignments instead.

This would help level the playing field instead of having the large concentration of powerful veterans like in the Midwest and NorthEast, and it would not be like playing the regional all over again.

Lora