Shop Sabre 23 recommendations?

We saved some money for an Omio x8, but then the school’s CTE director was able to get a grant for a larger budget and wants to buy a different (more expensive) machine from a manufacturer that will provide direct support if the machine has trouble. Originally, the proposal was to get a Tormach 404, but my feedback was (as nice as that machine is) the team would use a CNC router more than the Tormach. I welcome opinions to the contrary.

The Shop Sabre 23 CNC router, with its 30x40 working area that is just large enough for belly pans, seems like a good choice. We’re also space constrained; we would struggle to find space for a 4x4 (probably would have to remove our smaller lathe and shift the layout of the whole shop) & certainly could not fit a 4x8.

For those of you who have the SS23 machine, if you had the budget to buy everything useful to go with it (including air/coolant, tooling, maybe a vacuum table & an enclosure probably), what would you recommend? Thanks.

3 Likes

My experience is with a ShopSabre PRO 404 rather than a 23, but most of the same decisions apply. I ordered it in November 2022, and had it up and running by February. Lots of compressed learning during build season.

Regarding your inclination toward a CNC router before a CNC mill, I made the same choice based on extensive Chief Delphi reading, and it has served our team extremely well. Given a large team, large budget, and deep institutional knowledge, both would be useful, but the router can do most of the important mill work, whereas the converse does not hold.

Regarding support, I have read a few anecdotes of teams hitting dead ends with ShopSabre support in diagnosing/repairing faulty hardware, where the only remaining option was to pay for an expensive on-site technician visit. I haven’t had any hardware failures, so I can’t speak to that. But I have had quite a lot of interaction with technical support for the control software (some detailed questions, some configuration problems, some configuration enhancements), and in every case I was actually surprised by how good the support was. This was no fluke; I dealt with at least three different people while getting up to speed.

Regarding space, I was surprised by how large the effective footprint is, once accounting for access to the various parts of the machine. I had imagined building an enclosure to keep aluminum chips contained, but it quickly became apparent that an enclosure would have to be huge to serve that purpose and allow convenient machine access. I punted, and we just deal with the cleanup implications.

Now for low-utility machine options. I agonized over a few options that I ultimately left off: vacuum table, tool changer, retracting locator pins. I only miss the tool changer sometimes, but its absence had the benefit of forcing us to embrace batching to reduce tool changes. The vacuum table and locator pins would be useful for a production shop processing sheet goods, but they are of so little use for FRC, that if I were to do things over, I’d probably omit them even if they were free.

The options I’m super glad to have: mister, phenolic table with T-slots, “material thickness calibration touchpad” (for quickly and accurately setting Z), dust skirt, control pendant. A couple of caveats are in order though. The phenolic table is great because it isn’t damaged by the mister like MDF is; we mostly use a bespoke MDF spoil board on top of the phenolic surface and fly cut it often to counteract swelling due to coolant damage. If you aren’t using a mister, you can probably get away with an MDF top. Also, although it’s possible to use the mister with a smaller air compressor than specified, I upgraded this summer and am getting better cooling and chip clearing now. As for dust collection, I already had a large dust collector; for FRC-specific use I wouldn’t bother with a dust collector, and would just use a good shop vac for wood jobs (fly cutting being the one thing that would make me wish for a dust collector).

Ah, and tooling. It is crazy how deep that rabbit hole goes. For fixtures, we rely almost exclusively on screwing into the spoil board, either through 1/4" plywood rectangles as sprung hold-downs, or through holes drilled in aluminum/plastic/wood. When access to the entire work piece is required, we use the blue masking tape plus CA glue approach (one layer of tape on the table, one layer on the work piece, CA glue binding the tape layers together). When it’s important to flip a piece over and carefully match front/back features, we use locator pins (wood dowels, brass rods, or Delrin rods). For bits, we use uncoated solid carbide flat endmills. There are single-flute endmills specifically designed for aluminum and other single-flute endmills for plastic. We use those to good effect, with the mister running. We haven’t used wood very much since we gained the ability to rout aluminum, polycarbonate, Delrin, etc. We mainly use 1/4" and 1/8" diameter; 1/2" only comes into play when removing large amounts of material.

One more thought on end mills: Expect to break several each time you approach a new-to-you technique (applies especially to 1/8" and smaller). You will get over most of the general beginner mistakes after breaking the first ten or so, but every material and type of operation has its own challenges.

2 Likes

The extra 6" of cutting area in both directions compared to typical “23” routers will likely be a game changer, especially the 30" width. it’s like this router was designed for FRC.

I’m not a SS23 owner (maybe I should be), but I’ll toss out some of the options I’d suggest.

  • HSD spindle - so much quieter than a router and should have great lifetime - the smallest size offered for the 23 should work well - larger ones might start to get into 3 phase power, need something special on the z-axis to hold it / move it, and might limit max z height
  • lubricant mister - makes a big difference for aluminum - you’ll also need a compressor, but probably don’t need anything special from Shop Sabre. We’ve had a California Air Tools one that has been trouble free and is pretty quiet
  • thickness touchpad - super fast to calibrate z zero
  • fly cutter - a large diameter fly cutting bit is essential for maintaining an MDF spoilboard
  • laser alignment - if this is available, it makes it easy to set x and y zero when high accuracy is not needed (i.e. most sheet cutting)
  • hybrid slot/vacuum phenolic top - this option, if available, can save time. Being able to lay down a big sheet, turn on the vacuum, and start cutting is super nice. Even better is also having slots to hold down smaller workpieces. If you get phenolic, it will be resistant to coolant mist and you can drill and tap it if you want to mount something like a tube fixture or just have registration pins. The vacuum pump will be loud and will kill all the quiet goodness of a spindle when you are using vacuum, but it’s a small price to pay for the convenience.
1 Like

We own a shopsabre 23 installed it in the fall of 2020.

So far it’s been a very good machine.

Features we got

  • 120v Router spindle and not a 220v spindle as we couldn’t get a 220v line at the time.
  • Mister - this was tricky, as since we didn’t get the 220v spindle we couldn’t get the phenolic top. So we had to work with our sales rep to give it to us and the MDF top.
  • Tool height sensor and material/bed sensor/probe

Spoilboard
This is our current spoil board and WCP tube jig setup.


Using HDPE spoilboard and t-tracks. Three sections so we can do 060, 090, and 250 aluminum, 1’*2’ sheets in each section.

Review
So far it’s been a great machine. We haven’t had any maintenance issues with it. WinCNC works great as the controller software. We did upgrade the desktop computer they ship with it, just so it’s easier for us to do run Vcarve directly on the machine.

Letting us do 24"x40" and still have the tube jig installed is great. I had originally planned on building out a tube jig holder for the over table area reserved for the 4th axis rotary but we never got that done and haven’t really needed the extra few X-axis inches for anything.

If we had space for a 4’x4’ we would have gotten that but we didn’t.

1 Like

100 got a Shop Sabre 23 last year. it’s a good machine. the vacuum is convenient, I’d suggest it. a bigger multistage vacuum might work even better, the mql mist is great, though it means you can’t use mdf spoilboard. it’s a big machine, I can’t imagine building a sound shield around it. like any router it benefits from a vast amount of air to clear slots, and that makes it hard to rig a dust shoe. it would be nice to use the 4th axis mounts for a tube jig, probably that’s worth figuring out when you’re doing the initial setup. definitely get the pendant if you like real buttons (I do). good luck!

2 Likes

Thanks for the responses!

The coach also mentioned the Tormach 24R. Anyone have experience with it? I think, for FRC and for the space we have available in the shop, the Shop Sabre 23’s likely better, but I’m sure the Tormach has some advantages.

1 Like

Get a water jet from OMAX

We have the 24R with the ATC upgrade and a SMW fixture plate and love it, my only wishes for it would be for a servo upgrade and a slightly larger x travel for more belly pan size options.

For as large of a router as it is I’m surprised at the speed and accuracy it’s able to do.

Edit: Just wanted to point out that this machine (at least in our config) is in a totally price bracket at 3-4x the cost of the ShopSabre 23.

2 Likes

That takes a router 3 hours takes this 30 min

…yeah…and it is priced accordingly. Irrelevant to OP’s topic.

4 Likes

They did say they were considering getting a tormach

There are many varieties of Tormach.

Many of those varieties will be an order of magnitude less than a waterjet. The ones that do get close to said waterjet will be higher end, or have a lot of bells and whistles.

1 Like

Hopefully its not too late to throw another hat into the ring. Zero affiliation and do not own one myself but I have gotten good reviews from people who do and they look good when I visited them at a booth.

-Ronnie

2 Likes

Thanks for additional comments.

Follow-up specific to users of the Shop Sabre 23: For CAM, are you using the VCarve Pro that comes with the machine, perhaps buying an edu license so mentors & students can have the software on their own machines?

We are using Vcarve pro just the license that comes with it, and it’s only on the machine next to our router. We have templates set up so the CAM is pretty quick to do for most things.

1 Like

We’re using OnShape for CAD, exporting STEP files, and using Fusion 360 for CAM.

1 Like

We’ve been using V-carve. I’m hoping to use OnShape cam when it comes out

1 Like

Team 100 is using Fusion 360 for CAM and making g-code for the Sabre. Our CAD/CAM has been based on Fusion for a few years now, and we know the CAM side well from using it with our Haas TM-1. It’s nice to be able to output g-code for the ShopSabre, Haas, or a VMC that we can access depending on which machine and operator are available.

Our ShopSabre does not have an automatic toolchanger whereas the other machines do, so that can be a consideration depending on the part. A recent swerve part required 19 toolchanges on the VMC, so that would have been no fun on the Sabre. The ShopSabre is nowhere near as stiff, repeatable, or accurate than the other machines, but, e.g., 1-1/8" bearing holes are adequate.

Our version of WinCNC that controls the Sabre cannot handle compensation on the contour (G41/G42) in the conventional way. I view that as a handicap, because we cannot tweak fits on the fly from part to part or even hole to hole like you can on the “industrial” CNC controls. The Sabre spindle is not synchronized with the Z motion, and therefore cannot be used for power-tapping.

The students seem to view the Sabre as more approachable than the Haas even though the chips are just as hot and sharp, far less contained, and it’s at least as noisy. Our machine has the 3-phase VFD-driven Italian spindle motor, which is far nicer and quieter than any brushed router motor I’ve ever encountered. We plug it into a welder socket in our shop.

We made a set of vises for holding tubes on the Sabre. Each vise is 1 ft long and we can set them up end-to-end depending on the the tube length. They’ll handle up to 3x3 tube.

All in all, we’d recommend the machine for sheet materials up to 2’ x 3’ and 1/4" thick, and for long tubes.

1 Like

We have a laguna swift 4x4. Decent machine, we upgraded the spindle? Have some issues here and there but overall a solid machine. Rigid and plenty of power

1 Like

This topic was automatically closed 365 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.