I think you’re arguing theory and practice here. It this were true in practice, we’d see instances where the same team wins EI and Chairman’s at the same event. You do believe there are teams working in outreach that are working on the distinct criteria for both, do you not? I know for a fact MARS is one of these teams. If they’re not in a shared process at some point, how is it possible we don’t see the same team winning both from time to time?
I’m not sure I’d say it’s a conflict of interest, rather a different perspective. You bring up an interesting counterpoint. I imagine implementation is the key here. You’ll notice nobody is complaining that you’ve won two regionals this season. Can you think of a reasonable solution to prevent pre-qualified teams from winning regionals? You have to sit out after the semis and get a backup bot? How could we do this?
With awards, it’s much more trivial. It’s as simple as attaching the EI tag to the Chairmans five year limitation. Honestly, I’d prefer see a permanent limitation on Chairmans. I love getting to see what other teams are doing. This would provide an avenue that ensures new teams get recognized here. Why limit it to EI and not other awards? EI includes the championships invitation. There are plenty of awards that show just how amazing your team, and your robot, are. Why not set aside awards that come with an invitation for teams that can use the invitation if there’s an easy way to handle this?
At the judging level, they are not in a shared process, but the judges will not give both awards to the same team. This is also true with other awards. Teams typically do not earn multiple technical awards. At a regional, the judges for the Chairman’s Award are entirely separate, and the content in the Chairman’s Award cannot be used and shared with other judges. Chairman’s judges do not even interview teams in the pits. However, once the Chairman’s judges decide on their winner, that team is taken off the list for other judged awards. We have very rarely earned multiple awards at the same event where we won Chairman’s. The only awards we have won alongside Chairman’s at the same event are awards judged separately. I.e. Entreprenuership is judged partially before the event by a separate team of judges, Dean’s List/Woodie Flowers, GP that is nominated by other teams, etc.
The Chairman’s and EI awards are entirely separate, with separate judging processes, judges, and criteria. However, being at the top of the Chairman’s Judges’ list will knock you off for other awards, not just the Chairman’s Award.
Judges typically “spread the wealth” and will not give the same team multiple awards at an event. The primary exception to this is Safety because it is decided in an entirely separate process. Doing this also simplifies the process of the awards - if a team wins an award they can be taken out of deliberation from other awards. Since CA is the highest award winning it pulls you from contention from other awards, EI is typically next because it’s a qualifying award. RAS similar deal (though, truthfully this has less of an impact on awards typically). After that, I usually try to prioritize awards that will make other awards “drop out” or that have large numbers of teams on the board so we can send folks back out if we need to.
Entrepreneurship and GP are decided during this process the same as other awards by judges same as everything else. Entrepreneurship has additional restrictions based on submission criteria, and GP allows teams to submit content for consideration but ultimately the judges decide that award. However, when Regionals had Fri/Sat awards we couldn’t decide on awards entirely at once and as such teams could win awards during ceremonies on Friday and Saturday. Now that they are all handed out at once multiple team awards (again, outside of safety) are less likely.
Individual awards (VOTY, WFFA, DL) are obviously entirely distinct and don’t follow these rules at all.
However, your statement that we cannot use information from Chairman’s submissions in other judging is at least partially incorrect, there’s nothing stopping it but practically it’s difficult since CA judges tend to be off on their own. I’ve seen occasions when they came back and looked at other awards and asked to add teams for consideration. Chairman’s judges may also, time permitting, do pit interviews but that is far less common (and I don’t think it’s done at CMP, ok, I know it hasn’t been done since I’ve judged at CMP) . Judge teams all work together to celebrate the teams according to award criteria. They can use any information their fellow judges gathered at that event to make decisions.
Source: FRC Judge 2012 - 2017 (I took 2018 off from volunteering), CMP Judge 2014-2016 (skipped CMP the last 2 years), Judge Advisor Boston - 2015/2016 (I moved out of the area and trained a replacement whom I think is doing pretty well)
Thank you for the clarification. I have never been an FRC judge, but I’m just going off of what my friends and relatives that ARE judged have told me, so I apologize for any misinformation.
The point still stands that EI and Chairman’s are different and separate, and I firmly believe that earning a Chairman’s Award should have no bearing on the ability to earn an EI Award in the future. The students deserve just as much of a chance for recognition whether they’re on a HoF team or not.
There is a large misconception that EI is basically “second place Chairman’s.”
And that is simply not true. The awards have different criteria. Just like how the different tech awards are all different. The Innovation in Control Award is different than the Industrial Design Award, etc.
No apologies needed man, you were like 95% there which is more than most people get. And some of that stuff has changed recently (the Fri/Sat award stuff most notably)
EI and CA are distinct awards that are judged as independently as any other two awards are. The awards may have similar criteria but others do as well. In fact, as a summary:
Machine Attributes (outside of Creativity) - How well does the team articulate their process to achieve the end result that’s MFD.
Team Attributes (outside of Entrepreneurship but including CA) - How well does the team celebrate and spread FIRST’s mission.
Nobody would dare say Industrial Design is runner up Engineering Excellence right? Similar deal. VERY similar criteria (at a high level) but distinct awards.
Ninja: I’m completely agreeing with Alex, distinct awards. Just adding a new way to look at it for folks.
I agree and it doesn’t help that at many events, the team that wins is up for Chairman’s so the award is almost a disappointment to them, because now they know they didn’t Chairman’s.
From the manual:
Engineering Inspiration Award
Updated
February 7, 2018
Events Where It Is Awarded
District Events
Regional Competitions
District Championships**
FIRST Championship Division
Description
Celebrates outstanding success in advancing respect and appreciation for engineering within a team’s school or organization and community.
Guidelines
Extent and inventiveness of the team’s efforts to recruit students to engineering with particular emphasis on the most recent year’s efforts. Measurable success of those efforts.
Extent and effectiveness of the team’s community outreach efforts with particular emphasis on the most recent year’s efforts. Measurable success of those efforts.
A commitment to science and technology education among the team, school, and community.
Achievement of the FIRST mission and ability to communicate that at the competition and away from it.
Efforts are ongoing, not strictly concentrated on the build and competition season.
Eligibility
Teams* are eligible for the Engineering Inspiration Award at each Regional or District event. Teams will be restricted to earning this award once at each level of competition. In other words, once a team has earned Engineering Inspiration Award at a Regional or District event, they may not earn it again that season at a later Regional or District Event. At District Championship, only District teams that have won Engineering Inspiration Award at a District event during the current season are eligible.
*District Teams who participate at Regionals or inter-district events are not eligible for the Engineering Inspiration Award at those events.
**An interview room may be used for this award at the District Championships. Please consult your district leadership with any questions.
And some of that stuff has changed recently (the Fri/Sat award stuff most notably)