Just a thought I had. Obviously they shouldn’t get game pieces, but I feel like it would lower the number of rookie robots that are just drivetrains, if they have the preseason to experiment.
So, your real question is - should there be a pre-rookie kit containing:
- their control system
- a lower cost drivetrain option
- materials and instructions to construct bumpers
- the phone number of the main contact of the nearest team that can help them
- a list of resources (first website, 1114’s seminars)
Sure, but it won’t fix the problem.
As a rookie team we purchased and assembled a KOP drivetrain before the season started. It definitely helped us avoid making certain mistakes the second time around. The drivetrain was turned into a second robot after the 6 week build period.
I think sending just the frame would be great, but it’s already possible to buy ahead of time if the team knows what they’re doing.
Are there a large number of rookie robots that are just drivetrains? I didn’t see a single rookie bot with out some sort of gear mechanism this season in CHS.
Expecting any single action to “fix” the problem would be naive, but it would certainly help. Especially for low-resource teams.
I’d have killed for this back when I was helping 4464 get started.
Ok, lemme rephrase - it won’t solve the core problem of unprepared rookies but will act as a bandaid to allow us to continue founding teams without respect to properly building the structures successful teams need.
I can’t remember the number but at the St Joe FiM there was a robot I remember that was a 2 CIM drivetrain with polycarbonate sides that were a passive gear mechanism. I haven’t seen many like that but I’ve seen a few that are essentially just drivetrains with a few items attached. I’ve noticed this the past couple years also.
I think it probably varies by year, but I don’t think I’ve seen any rookie robot that was only a drivetrain. Any I’ve seen this year have at least a gear holder and/or a climber.
On the OP’s idea, AndyMark already sells a Rookie Startup Kit, but maybe the final team registration payment could have an option to automatically order it for the additional charge of whatever the kit costs + shipping.
Getting the yellow tote+kitbot early might help, especially if they do it early enough to allow participation at offseason events. (Of course, they may need to include a waiver for the parts manufactured before kickoff rule since IIRC you need to cut some plates down to build it)
I think what would be more helpful is getting local teams to help. And letting rookies know that they should ask for help.
This, I’m definitely more sympathetic to - but something about opposing an otherwise-good policy because its benefits might mask a more fundamental underlying problem makes me slightly uneasy.
Didn’t oppose it. Even thought it through enough to suggest things it should contain. Just wanted to raise the concern that there’s an underlying issue that this simply masks.
There’s incentives to continue not addressing the issue though so I have no hope that it will really get addressed. So, if that’s life giving you lemons this might be a solid approach to making lemonade.
Fair enough, I can totally agree with this.
Well… Ever hear of “Root Cause Analysis”?
Basically, you try to figure out the real reason for a problem X. One of the standard methods is 5-Whys: ask the question “Why…” 5 times, each building on the other, and you should be pretty close to the answer. You’re trying to identify what the real cause of the problem is before you fix something that is minor and the problem happens again despite the fix.
As an example:
Problem: Car broke down.
Why did the car break down? The transmission locked up.
Why did the transmission lock up? It was out of fluid.
Why was it out of fluid? The crankcase had a crack.
Why was did the crankcase have a crack? The car hit a big rock on the road.
a) Why did the car hit the rock? No time to avoid it.
b) Why was the rock in the road? Rockslide!
You get the point. Usually after about 5 questions, you’ll have the root cause. There are other methods that cover more ground; sometimes even 5-Why will lead down two or three trails.
I don’t think I’d be opposed to rookies getting a KOP early, as it would increase their chances of being at an offseason with a robot they built and get a taste of the experience, but like Andrew I wonder what it would actually solve. Particularly since it isn’t just the rookies that show up with only a drivetrain. (And one rookie that showed up that way proceeded to win their event with a pool-noodle boulder-blocker cheesecaked on top. True story; they actually planned on doing the “just a drivetrain” strategy.) Some veterans end up with the same thing. There are some veteran teams that have a reputation among veteran inspectors as “perma-rookies” for their continued rookie-type mistakes.
So the real question becomes: Would giving rookies a KOP early actually help, particularly in later years when they don’t get that early KOP?
Q: Should rookies get the KoP early?
nope.
I’m sure most here have heard of root cause analysis.
But, it’s important to note that you diverged here a good bit. You’re discussing two different problems.
- What causes many rookie teams to show up to their first event unprepared?
- What causes non-rookie teams to show up to events unprepared?
You’ll likely find a venn diagram of sorts here. Some causes will show up for both problems. Some will be unique to either group. Discussing how something won’t solve problem 2 doesn’t really offer all that much insight into helping problem 1. As I’d expect the percentage of teams included in 2 to be a smaller percentage than in 1, it would appear experience helps many teams avoid making that same mistake in the future. The logic being used here suggests earlier exposure would allow some of these rookie teams to go through growing pains prior to the build season so that they’re able to avoid this problem their first season.
Now, does that make worlds of sense? I’d suspect it’ll have a smaller impact than we’d hope. First, many rookie teams are very prepared. This wouldn’t impact these teams. Second, this assumes the hindrance is funding. The difference between purchasing these parts and having the KOP early just means the team doesn’t spend on a second bot. If the problem is anything other than funding, we haven’t looked to address it.
All in all, I’m not sure it’ll have much impact as I’m not sure the design is a poor design for a young team. This year, a drive train with a passive slot was sufficient to play the game. Last year, a drive train was enough to play defense and cross most of the defenses in game to work towards that RP.
I think problem 2 is the more interesting problem. How do you help teams come to events with electronics that can be inspected? How do you help teams understand a visible radio/roboRIO is a huge help when they run into connection issues on the field?
Are we seeing a lot of drivetrains that aren’t able to play the game? The closest example I can think of is a rookie team that went all in on shooting and came up short. Early access to their drive train wouldn’t have prevented this.
It’s kinda odd how starting teams is a check box for the Chairman’s Award, too. We personally try not to go out of our way to start teams unless the school or community could sustain an FRC team long-term.
Maybe there should be certain requirements such as “at least X sponsors” or something that can help mitigate the issue of teams starting without legs to stand on.
And no, the KOP isn’t the end-all, be-all solution, but it would be nice especially for certain offseason events to start pre-rookie teams that compete at their cost-effective event to get a taste of FRC before going all in.
Having experience pre-season working with a robot that can move is invaluable for a rookie. But you know, very few rookies these days are outside of a reasonable driving distance from another team. Why do we need to give rookies a KoP early, when a nearby team can help out and get them some practical training/experience?
Partnering rookies with veterans solves many more issues than just getting a decent robot on the field. It gives that rookie team a resource to help with everything else (fundraising, equipment access, access to field assemblies, assistance with recruiting, getting involved in the community, etc). THAT is how you solve the rookie problem, not by throwing supplies at them early and saying “good luck”.
Also, with the idea of giving out the KoP to them early… there are some significant issues with that. For starters, every team would know exactly what the KoP drive train looks like. That could include clues to the field (4" wheels vs 8" wheels, for example, would help identify driving hazards on the field). Additionally, if you’re going to give them the kit early, you’d better also tell them the max robot dimensions so they don’t cut the kit down too much! And if you give them the dimensions, then veteran teams will have them as well, and be even more prepared at kickoff with ideas for drive trains that fit those dimensions. And if the dimensions are of the form “120 inch frame perimeter”, then you’d better give them an idea of what the challenges in the game will be so they know which direction to cut the frame for their strategy!
I’ve seen plenty of rookie teams come in and just get it right away. They’re great. I’ve also seen plenty of rookie teams that would have benefited from a year or two in FTC, so they could get their structure, funding, experience, and mentorship in line and ready for FRC. The learning curve is just so steep when you go from nothing to FRC.
This sounds nice, and probably works really well for some teams, but it is not a one-size-fits-all solution.
When I was helping to start 4464, we received a lot of help from local teams (especially 449, as I was still a mentor there). That said, we could not have simply spent time with 449 - scheduling requirements were different, and 449 really couldn’t have afforded to spend their limited preseason meeting hours teaching a rookie team.
4464 ended up managing to scrap together a not-very-impressive practice bot out of bits and pieces of old kitbots (mostly donated by 449 and 1915), but it took a long time and a fair amount of headache. Access to a honest-to-goodness kitbot would have been a godsend.
When our team started four years back, there weren’t very many teams within reasonable driving distance, let alone ones that had the resources to help us. In addition, even if there are teams in the area, I’m sure teams would be more willing to help with parts that the rookie provided, rather than giving up parts on their own. It’s not always feasible for teams to do this.
As you noted, pre-season prep is invaluable. Why limit that to veteran teams?
Also, with the idea of giving out the KoP to them early… there are some significant issues with that. For starters, every team would know exactly what the KoP drive train looks like. That could include clues to the field (4" wheels vs 8" wheels, for example, would help identify driving hazards on the field). Additionally, if you’re going to give them the kit early, you’d better also tell them the max robot dimensions so they don’t cut the kit down too much! And if you give them the dimensions, then veteran teams will have them as well, and be even more prepared at kickoff with ideas for drive trains that fit those dimensions. And if the dimensions are of the form “120 inch frame perimeter”, then you’d better give them an idea of what the challenges in the game will be so they know which direction to cut the frame for their strategy!
Hm. What if they were given last-years drivetrain, and if wheels changed, they were sent the new parts? For instance, if I was a rookie in 2016, I would get an AM14U2, and then I would get the updated out plates/changed wheels for the season.
I’m not sure how to solve the cutting issue, but it’s something to gnaw on for the time-being.
Yep. Why have teams making critical mistakes during the season that they could have easily learned beforehand, during the pre-season?
I think I can solve it. You very specifically tell them in the instructions “DO NOT CUT CHASSIS!”
And then, the offseason rules go like this: Pre-rookies using another team’s robot must comply with all robot rules less ±5 lb weight. “Pre”-rookies using their own KOP robot are exempted from base size rules; however, if for strategic purposes said teams opt to use non-stock KOP frames* the KOP chassis must be returnable to stock configuration (uncut) after the event.
*Say, changing to shorter crossbars to fit through gaps.